Old Prospector

Old Prospector's Students and their iAVs Innovations

14 posts in this topic

From GD....In another thread, Old Prospector mentioned that that he had students who had been attempting to innovate around what they'd learned from iAVs.  It was pointed out to me that it was more appropriately a topic of its own....so here 'tis.  I'll let OP take it from here.

But our students have been redesigning our iAVs system, and what they learned from APN, they have come up with 3 different  designs that uses anywhere from 1/4 to 1/10 of the sand needed to grow the same crops that are used from the original designed beds, by Dr. MM.

Their new designs also have gotten rid of the furrows, no liner materials, and the only solids pumped to the beds are less than 10 microns in size.

One thing that the students used, is the design of the water distribution system of Dr, M's, this Is one item that is never discussed, but will solve many problems on flooding your system.

Edited by GaryD (see edit history)
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On 1 December 2016 at 10:18 PM, Old Prospector said:

But our students have been redesigning our iAVs system, and what they learned from APN....

Did we ever see a photo of this iAVs development?  Did you ever post on the things that they learned?

Quote

 ....they have come up with 3 different  designs that uses anywhere from 1/4 to 1/10 of the sand needed to grow the same crops that are used from the original designed beds, by Dr. MM.

When do we get to see these designs....and the comparative data that evidences comparable yield for 1/4 to 1/10 of the sand?

Quote

Their new designs also have gotten rid of the furrows, no liner materials, and the only solids pumped to the beds are less than 10 microns in size.

Can you explain (and photos would be good) how they no longer require furrows?  How did you determine that your solid wastes were limited to 10 microns?

We'd love to hear more about your solids management idea.  When can we expect you to elucidate these discoveries?

Quote

One thing that the students used, is the design of the water distribution system of Dr, M's, this Is one item that is never discussed, but will solve many problems on flooding your system.

What aspect of the water distribution system is it that is never discussed?

I'm very interested in your 'observations'.....to the point where I would ask how you would evidence any of them?

Gary

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Hi

OP have posted a pic here of the student system,

they are secret systems so they won't get stolen, unlike Marks iAVs that are free and come with detailed instructions


OP also mention this developement here

and here

 

cheers

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2 hours ago, ande said:

Hi

OP have posted a pic here of the student system,

they are secret systems so they won't get stolen, unlike Marks iAVs that are free and come with detailed instructions

cheers

Ande

"they are secret systems so they won't get stolen,"  I, miss worded that, instead of Secret, I should have wrote Un-Published, that way they won't get stolen by someone else.

"unlike Marks iAVs that are free and come with detailed instructions" Well, as for detailed instructions, not very true, seems measurements are very lacking in his instructions. At one time he stated to another member something along the gist of,  Your fish tank of 5' depth would be like using a toilet. But were is his tanks deeper than 5'?

So Mark used 0.5 and 1 m3 tanks in his trials, so figure how big were the  measurements of the  tanks? Now for one of the measurements, you need to have the depth at least 1.5+ m or 5'+ depth, the other 2 measurements are not given that is what you have to figure, and since this is a fish tank don't forget to add the 4-6" freeboard to the total height.

The above is just an example of very poor detailed instructions, there are many more, but that's why he never went for a patent of his system, that would require him to go further into details.

So I'll end this now, you'll probably delete or hide this, can't offend the Mods.

OP

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Hi Ande, There is mention of my name in one of the quoted posts, so is this post.  I cleared some of my PMs today and found these 'claims' like the above ones.  Adding it here.  

Quote

OP (April 2016): I have lots of customers that I retrofit existing greenhouses for increasing their output of growing area. Besides we don't use sand beds we use a sand bucket system, 1 bucket can grow 2 indetermanite tomatoes for more than 10-12 months of the year.

Here is an example:

Your 280 s/m of sand beds x 0.34 m depth, you need from 93 - 100 c/m of sand.

At 4 tomatoes per s/m you'll have 1,120 plants in the entire shade house.

I'm pretty sure that I can increase your growing area from 320 - 380 s/m's, 1,280 - 1,520 tomato plants. Would you like that?? I bet you would. 

From the example above, for me to use a sand bucket system to grow the same 1,120 plants in, I only need to purchase 7 c/m's of sand

And, as far as some of these posters work stands, they steal ideas from here and there, and then they tell lies/preach.  Everyone seemingly reinvents the wheel in his/her own image and will hear/see no other.  Proof is in the doing (result) not in the story telling.  Over to you.

Edited by vkn (see edit history)

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9 hours ago, vkn said:

Hi Ande, There is mention of my name in one of the quoted posts, so is this post.  I cleared some of my PMs today and found these 'claims' like the above ones.  Adding it here.  

And, as far as some of these posters work stands, they steal ideas from here and there, and then they tell lies/preach.  Everyone seemingly reinvents the wheel in his/her own image and will hear/see no other.  Proof is in the doing (result) not in the story telling.  Over to you.

But you never asked How? So you call it a lie, typical

But you did a lot of Name calling in your PM's to me..

From GD.....You could avoid all of the anxiety by not inviting it through the baiting, provoking, selective quoting and 'gotcha' behaviour in which you engage.  You could demonstrate your cleverness much more effectively by actually  describing what you do and how you do it.....and we could all send you cards and money rather than... :)

 

Edited by GaryD (see edit history)

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8 hours ago, Old Prospector said:

But you never asked How? So you call it a lie, typical

But you did a lot of Name calling in your PM's to me..

Are you a two year old or what?  They are deliberate lies or hallucinations or both.  I think it is high time you create a topic for yourself and update your work progress there rather than trying with an intent to derail every iAVs related posts here at APN.

A brief word from a moderator (GD).....I've greyed out some text in this post....as an example of what not to include in a post.  We moderators have the capacity to edit posts....to remove the less useful material without impacting the flow of the discussion....but I'd rather we exercise voluntary restraint. 

Edited by GaryD
Moderator Input (see edit history)
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Old Prospector.....I'm almost certain that VKN would love to see how you get the results you claim with the sand bucket system.....as would the rest of us.

In addition, I'd like to hear the answers to the questions that I asked.

Gary

Edited by GaryD (see edit history)

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Hi Again OP

Ande

"they are secret systems so they won't get stolen,"  I, miss worded that, instead of Secret, I should have wrote Un-Published, that way they won't get stolen by someone else.

I look forward to see the results, when they get published :) allways interesting to see alternative ways to achive wanted results.

On 5.12.2016 at 1:59 PM, Old Prospector said:

Ande

"they are secret systems so they won't get stolen,"  I, miss worded that, instead of Secret, I should have wrote Un-Published, that way they won't get stolen by someone else.

"unlike Marks iAVs that are free and come with detailed instructions" Well, as for detailed instructions, not very true, seems measurements are very lacking in his instructions. At one time he stated to another member something along the gist of,  Your fish tank of 5' depth would be like using a toilet. But were is his tanks deeper than 5'?

So Mark used 0.5 and 1 m3 tanks in his trials, so figure how big were the  measurements of the  tanks? Now for one of the measurements, you need to have the depth at least 1.5+ m or 5'+ depth, the other 2 measurements are not given that is what you have to figure, and since this is a fish tank don't forget to add the 4-6" freeboard to the total height.

The above is just an example of very poor detailed instructions, there are many more, but that's why he never went for a patent of his system, that would require him to go further into details.

So I'll end this now, you'll probably delete or hide this, can't offend the Mods.

OP

 

I guess we see things wery different, or have different ways to collect & gather information specs etc. :fpc:

The first real info on iAVs(and still the best IMO) on this forum, was a series of posts in http://aquaponicsnation.com/forums/forum/21-useful-information/

by Kellen back in July 2014.

if you open the pdf links, in the posts, you'll find that this post series all contain the original doc.'s with an adittional info.

quote:

PLEASE NOTE:

The contents of this document have been provided to Aquaponics Nation (http://aquaponicsnation.com) by Mark R. McMurtry, PhD. As the original and primary author of the following contents, Dr. McMurtry has authorized Aquaponics Nation to display and/or disseminate the following documents in their current form. Dr. McMurtry reserves all other rights as they currently exist. These documents may not be reproduced, altered, shared, sold or disseminated in any other form, unless express permission has been granted by Dr. McMurtry and/or related copyright holders/assignees, as lawfully required and/or appropriate.

Dr. McMurtry has graciously compiled and shared this information for the benefit of the community, and has received no monetary compensation for doing so. We extend our heartfelt thanks and warmest regards to Dr. McMurtry for providing us the opportunity to share so much of his ground breaking work.

 

If you open/read on in the various original PDF doc.'s posted, you will  in factfind exact cientific (metric/US) measurements on it all.

How ever, if you allready have a fish tank, you can use that, there is no need to replicate a identical "iAVs fishtank", what you need is the iAVs sandbed (filter) capacity to handle a given  volum of fishfood (input).

So for those allready operating a RAS (any kind) they can choose to route(reroute) some of (or all) the efluents to a "new" iAVs sandbed (filter) add-on, and/or rebuild existing filters gravelbeds DWC or other ?

Unfortunatly there has been a extreme agressive tone or voice, in allmost all the differente iAVs threads (from a few members) since Kellen's posts.

To the point where MMcM no longer feel like giving directe advice/guidance to the forum members that in fact have built or try to build iAVs system.

It is not particullary encouraging for any old/new forum member or MMcM GaryD , to get in a dog fight, with those same few members, demanding this and that, claiming "we want the proof" (the proof is posted if one can read the data), "My students members do much better" (cool post it),

"iff you only did this ,with the strawberrys you would have gotten a much better/earlier yield" (instead of a thumbs up, when you post a pic of the first

strawberry).

Here are some of Kellens posts from July 2014

 

Please take your time to read the  PDF doc.'s links, embeded if you can't find or figure, the measurements volums etc. then drop iAVs and stick to what you can instead of stalking those that can.

 

cheers

 

 

 

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On 4 December 2016 at 10:29 AM, GaryD said:

Did we ever see a photo of this iAVs development?  Did you ever post on the things that they learned?

When do we get to see these designs....and the comparative data that evidences comparable yield for 1/4 to 1/10 of the sand?

Can you explain (and photos would be good) how they no longer require furrows?  How did you determine that your solid wastes were limited to 10 microns?

We'd love to hear more about your solids management idea.  When can we expect you to elucidate these discoveries?

What aspect of the water distribution system is it that is never discussed?

I'm very interested in your 'observations'.....to the point where I would ask how you would evidence any of them?

Gary

Just so we're clear, I think you're probably a nice bloke

Thanks Gary, that brings tears to my eye's. :lolu:

 

(which eliminates any doubt that I'm attacking you as the poster)

That's seems to be your style, and you've said that so in your PM's.

 

......but I'm challenging you to prove your statements.....

Challenge all you want, that's what you do best.

 

which, as things stand,

What is your meaning of "as things stand"?

 

have no basis is fact.

Some gibberish there. Sounds like you wanted to say 'have any basis based on facts.'  So what and who determines that something is a Fact?

 

We also get our facts from many other on-line sources. To name a few: 

Dr. Mark

Murray Hallam

Paul Van der Werf

Ryan Chatterson

NCSU

Cornell

NASA

Nelson-Pade

Google Search

Google Maps

You-Tube

60 Minints

The History Channel

ASC Magazine

BYAP

Grit on-line magazine

Mother Earth News

Koipen.com forum

Instructables

and many other Members of this forum.

 

Did we ever see a photo of this iAVs development?  

NO, these new developments, whether pertaining to iAVs, DWC, NFT, or any other AP growing systems,  are the sole Propriety Developments of the students that are working on his or her projects. This way they are protected later for any CopyWrites, Patents, etc. for their work. Think of it being similar to a large Corporations R&D department and what that involves. Besides myself and any other advisors have signed a NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) which says what I can reveal about the Program.

 

As an advisor, I, don't receive any monetary payment for my services, except in the rare occasion, were we request money from the Administrator for a project. He gives us Cash, and we provide him with all the receipts and what ever money left over back to him in Cash. Since he gives us the money in Bills, he only wants the Bills back, any change in the form of coins, he returns them to the advisor as a form of a tip.

 

Did you ever post on the things that they learned?

NO, see above answer.

 

When do we get to see these designs....and the comparative data that evidences comparable yield for 1/4 to 1/10 of the sand?

 Probably you will have to wait, the elucidation process is a very time consuming principle, just ask your mentor Dr. Mark.  Or read what he replied to Strider.

Posted July 6  by: Mark McMurtry

"To clarify: Actual 'studies' were conducted from 1984 through 1989.  Publication(s) came later - peer-review can be a very protracted process - and demanding.  Especially so for a previously unknown 'discipline' (conflation/fusion of well-established sciences)."

 

The above statement of Dr. Mark, was verified by our own advisor, who is in charge of the local college's Doctoral Dept. 

 

Can you explain (and photos would be good) how they no longer require furrows?  

Yes, it was shown on this forum how its done, not so long ago.

Blue Smart Farms Start Up GaryD posted a topic in LOUNGE AREA
 

How did you determine that your solid wastes were limited to 10 microns? 

Found this technology being used in the Gas and Oil refining process. Conversed with the technicians, explained what we wanted to do, and they gave me the suggestion, based on thier facts, by the way. Even told me that if I procured the material to use the 304 SS instead of the 316 SS. 304 SS is approx. 1/4 the cost of the 316.

 

We'd love to hear more about your solids management idea. Actually we got the facts for this from YOU, and others on this forum, but your intent of attack, has you so blind that you can't see "The forest because of the trees." So Sad, if you would learn some tact, you would see the light.  

 

When can we expect you to elucidate these discoveries?

Dr. Mark took 5 plus years, as stated by him above. he was much older than the students in the 7th and above grades that are in this program.

 

What aspect of the water distribution system is it that is never discussed?

The pipe in another pipe, this is a very unique delivery system from the facts of  Dr. Mark. Very easily done, the effluent going to the beds distributes it evenly, no clogging using 10 microns of dissolved solids. But you never used that fact in your Demo, if you had you wouldn't have to worry about scouring the sand, or even distributing of the fish effluent the length of the row evenly in less than 5 seconds.

 

I'm very interested in your 'observations'.....to the point where I would ask how you would evidence any of them?

It all takes time, I have to wait on the students using this unique learning facility, so you will have too also wait. The Elucidation process is not done over night. Just ask your mentor.

Edited by GaryD
GD...Post edited to remove obnoxious dialogue (see edit history)

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Did we ever see a photo of this iAVs development?  

NO, these new developments, whether pertaining to iAVs, DWC, NFT, or any other AP growing systems,  are the sole Propriety Developments of the students that are working on his or her projects. This way they are protected later for any CopyWrites, Patents, etc. for their work. Think of it being similar to a large Corporations R&D department and what that involves. Besides myself and any other advisors have signed a NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) which says what I can reveal about the Program.

 

As an advisor, I, don't receive any monetary payment for my services, except in the rare occasion, were we request money from the Administrator for a project. He gives us Cash, and we provide him with all the receipts and what ever money left over back to him in Cash. Since he gives us the money in Bills, he only wants the Bills back, any change in the form of coins, he returns them to the advisor as a form of a tip.

 

Did you ever post on the things that they learned?

NO, see above answer.

 

When do we get to see these designs....and the comparative data that evidences comparable yield for 1/4 to 1/10 of the sand?

 Probably you will have to wait, the elucidation process is a very time consuming principle, just ask your mentor Dr. Mark.  Or read what he replied to Strider.

Posted July 6  by: Mark McMurtry

"To clarify: Actual 'studies' were conducted from 1984 through 1989.  Publication(s) came later - peer-review can be a very protracted process - and demanding.  Especially so for a previously unknown 'discipline' (conflation/fusion of well-established sciences)."

 

The above statement of Dr. Mark, was verified by our own advisor, who is in charge of the local college's Doctoral Dept. 

 

Can you explain (and photos would be good) how they no longer require furrows?  

Yes, it was shown on this forum how its done, not so long ago.

Blue Smart Farms Start Up GaryD posted a topic in LOUNGE AREA
 

How did you determine that your solid wastes were limited to 10 microns? 

Found this technology being used in the Gas and Oil refining process. Conversed with the technicians, explained what we wanted to do, and they gave me the suggestion, based on thier facts, by the way. Even told me that if I procured the material to use the 304 SS instead of the 316 SS. 304 SS is approx. 1/4 the cost of the 316.

 

We'd love to hear more about your solids management idea. Actually we got the facts for this from YOU, and others on this forum, but your intent of attack, has you so blind that you can't see "The forest because of the trees." So Sad, if you would learn some tact, you would see the light.  

 

When can we expect you to elucidate these discoveries?

Dr. Mark took 5 plus years, as stated by him above. he was much older than the students in the 7th and above grades that are in this program.

 

What aspect of the water distribution system is it that is never discussed?

The pipe in another pipe, this is a very unique delivery system from the facts of  Dr. Mark. Very easily done, the effluent going to the beds distributes it evenly, no clogging using 10 microns of dissolved solids. But you never used that fact in your Demo, if you had you wouldn't have to worry about scouring the sand, or even distributing of the fish effluent the length of the row evenly in less than 5 seconds.

 

I'm very interested in your 'observations'.....to the point where I would ask how you would evidence any of them?

It all takes time, I have to wait on the students using this unique learning facility, so you will have too also wait. The Elucidation process is not done over night. Just ask your mentor.

So it's OK for your students to borrow from the work of many others without any requirement to respond in kind?   That says something about the education that they are are receiving.  It's also inconsistent with the spirit of this forum.

You made several claims...and the burden of proof for anyone who makes a claim lies with the one who makes the claim...in this case, you.  If you fail to meet that burden, the claim is unfounded and requires no further argument to dismiss it.

Quote

 

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Christopher Hitchens

 

Aron Ra says...

Quote

"If you cannot show it, then you do not know it."

In other words, If one cannot demonstrate and/or evidence a claim, then they literally do not know what they are talking about (or doing) and should be categorically ignored.

To summarise, you made claims which you are unable to evidence.  In the time-honoured tradition of Aquaponics HQ/Nation, I'm calling bullsh!t.

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Proof is in the doing (result) not in the story telling.

I do agriculture and try to learn/adapt every growing technique under the sky.  The future farmer kids in my school project, the school board and I want them to do the same.  I already have sand grow bags (square foot containers) that are working fine.  So, what new are you talking about?  Removing solids resulting in nutrient deficiencies?  Adding gizmos and gimmicks and supplements to the original iAVs?  SIGH!

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Hi OP,

Your last post (now hidden) was off-topic, continued to evidence a lack of commitment to sharing information with fellow members and contained the usual disparaging remarks.  

You, and your students, learned what you know through the efforts of other people.   That system only works if the participants play the game properly....and that means (having learned at the feet of others), you are bound (by social convention) to reciprocate.  Social recicprocity is a well-understood transactional strategy....and its the underpinning of this site.

You can't be forced to share - but, when you make claims - and fail to support those claims with appropriate evidence, it can be assumed that those claims were false.

Future posts which do not address the title of this thread will be concealed.  

Gary

Edited by GaryD (see edit history)

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