crsublette

What is the difference between iAVS vs. Organic Soil Agriculture?

60 posts in this topic

Just as the title states....

What is the difference between iAVS vs. Organic Soil Agriculture?

 

For the record, I have never been a proponent of only just hydroponic techniques. Hydroponics are concerned with hydroponics. The closest hydroponic technique to iAVS would be with dutch buckets; however, still, due to the lack of organics, there is a disconnect.

Silt and fine particulates, reduction in hydraulic conductivity and drainage, is not an issue within organic soil agriculture. Why? Ask APN member here, Yahoo. The microbrials create a "glue", lack of better terms, due to the increase microbrial population and diversity. This increased microbrial diversity increase water infiltration as well as soil infiltration as well as oxygen and gas exchange as well as water & nutrient retention, yet discouraging over-saturation of water.

Problem with soil agriculture is water and nutrient leaching, which is resolved with recapture due to involvement of either a concrete or liner grow bed.

As a side note, Allelopathic concerns is quite common, even within organic soil agriculture, of planting particular crops in direct sequence behind each other. If there is doubt in this, then just query potato and pumpkin agriculture in soil agriculture. Furthermore, there are many studies of these allelopathic concerns within hydroponics and they point out how particular hydroponic methods (due to water dilution) dilute these crop production obstacles. My guess, due to spin, Gary will likely portray these are never concerns with iAVS (which iAVS is soil based agriculture, although with a particular soil profile).

Organic soil agriculture often practice "ferti-gation". This is the practice of infusing irrigation water with nutrients, whether inorganic or organic.

 

So, What is the difference between iAVS vs. Organic Soil Agriculture?

 

Edited by crsublette (see edit history)

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Hi Charles,

Mark regards iAVs as organic horticulture.....or, more specifically, as organic olericulture (vegetable growing).

2 hours ago, crsublette said:

Silt and fine particulates, reduction in hydraulic conductivity and drainage, is not an issue within organic soil agriculture. Why? Ask APN member here, Yahoo. The microbrials create a "glue", lack of better terms, due to the increase microbrial population and diversity. This increased microbrial diversity increase water infiltration as well as soil infiltration as well as oxygen and gas exchange as well as water & nutrient retention, yet discouraging over-saturation of water.

While we resist silt and limit fine particulates to ensure adequate drainage, the same microbial diversity probably has a similar impact on iAVs, too.  One difference, of course, is the frequency with which we flood iAVs beds to saturation.....and that we do it with a predetermined frequency that impacts not just the drainage but also the filtration for the fish.

2 hours ago, crsublette said:

As a side note, Allelopathic concerns is quite common, even within organic soil agriculture, of planting particular crops in direct sequence behind each other. If there is doubt in this, then just query potato and pumpkin agriculture in soil agriculture. Furthermore, there are many studies of these allelopathic concerns within hydroponics and they point out how particular hydroponic methods (due to water dilution) dilute these crop production obstacles. My guess, due to spin, Gary will likely portray these are never concerns with iAVS (which iAVS is soil based agriculture, although with a particular soil profile).

I don't know how allelopathy impacts plants in iAVs.  If it does so in organic agriculture, there's a possibility that it will do the same thing in iAVs since they are essentially similar.  Another factor with hydroponics that allows them to grow the same crop repeatedly is that they disinfect the system between crops. 

I'm not conscious of engaging in "spin" but, if you point to examples of where you believe that I have done so, I'll attempt to clarify things.

To respond to your opening question, I don't believe that there is much that separates iAVs and organic horticulture.  

In fact, we'd argue that, of all of the (so-called) aquaponics variants, iAVs is probably the only one that really qualifies as organic for the purposes of the National Organic Standards Board review of aquaponics and hydroponics.....largely due to its unique relationship with soil microbiology.

Some AP folk (including Ryan Chatterson) have argued that the microbiology in AP raft systems is the same as that found in soil-based organic gardening.  In my view, they are blowing smoke.  There doesn't appear to be much in the way of science to support the claim.

 

Gary

Edited by GaryD (see edit history)

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Hi c

 

1 hour ago, crsublette said:

So, What is the difference between iAVS vs. Organic Soil Agriculture?

 

IMO iAVs is a spesific/defined method where as the other is any way or method

 

cheers

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6 minutes ago, ande said:

Hi c

 

IMO iAVs is a spesific/defined method where as the other is any way or method

 

cheers

 

Umm... This might be a language barrier... but.... say what?!?

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Hi again

 

30 minutes ago, crsublette said:

 

Umm... This might be a language barrier... but.... say what?!?

I'll try again then

iAVs is a spesific/defined method within Organic Soil Agriculture

Where as Organic Soil Agriculture is any type/method, including iAVs

cheers

 

Edited by ande (see edit history)

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8 minutes ago, ande said:

Hi again

 

I'll try again then

iAVs is a spesific/defined method within

Where as Organic Soil Agriculture is any type/method, including iAVs

cheers

 

Yes, I am aware of that Ande.... this doesn't answer my question, since the exact same benefits iAVS portrays is experienced within organic soil agriculture, assuming there is water recapture.

iAVS is a distinction without much different, other than a distinct sand profile, from organic soil agriculture.

 

 

Edited by crsublette (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, GaryD said:

To respond to your opening question, I don't believe that there is much that separates iAVs and organic horticulture.

 

This is my entire point... There is not much that seperates iAVS and organic soil horticulture... other than significant increased cost of capital expenditures (i.e., cubic tons of the "proper" sand)...

 

Other than water recapture and ensure moisture retention is not high... which can be achieved quite cheap and easy...

 

What is the difference between iAVS vs. Organic Soil Agriculture?

Edited by crsublette (see edit history)

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Hi C

 

3 minutes ago, crsublette said:

 

This is my entire point... There is not much that seperates iAVS and organic soil horticulture... other than significant increased cost of capital expenditures (i.e., cubic tons of the "proper" sand)...

 

Other than water recapture and ensure moisture retention is not high... which can be achieved quite cheap and easy...

 

What is the difference between iAVS vs. Organic Soil Agriculture?

Let me put it this way then

iAVs is one  spesific way of preforming Organic Soil Agriculture

A Earthan Bed would be another specific way of preforming Organic Soil Agriculture

So the methods iAVs/EB are both Organic Soil Agriculture methods but still different from each other in their spesifics

IMO that is :)

 

 

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7 minutes ago, ande said:

Hi C

 

Let me put it this way then

iAVs is one  spesific way of preforming Organic Soil Agriculture

A Earthan Bed would be another specific way of preforming Organic Soil Agriculture

So the methods iAVs/EB are both Organic Soil Agriculture methods but still different from each other in their spesifics

IMO that is :)

 

 

 

Ande, I am not talking about that...

 

...the question was not... Are there different methods of organic soil agriculture... Of course there are!

Edited by crsublette (see edit history)

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Hi again

then I don't understand your Q

Or maybe ?

56 minutes ago, crsublette said:

 

Umm... This might be a language barrier... but.... say what?!?

Ditto :D

cheers

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My proposal is precisely expressed in the original post....

Not talking about how there are different ways to doing things within soil agriculture... Quite obvious there are construction differences within soil agriculture... Then should be quite obvious this is not what I am talking about...

...unless folk want to continue playing games due to peculiarities.... Lets stick to answering what I originally wrote... rather than dodging and/or ignoring it...

Edited by crsublette (see edit history)

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My answer...

The difference between typical organic soil agriculture and iAVS is negligible, at best... if not entirely indistinguishable....

...except for the fact one system requires the purchase of a few cubic tons of sand....

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Hi C

 

Just now, crsublette said:

My answer...

The difference between typical organic soil agriculture and iAVS is negligible, at best... if not entirely indistinguishable....

...except for the fact one system requires the purchase of a few cubic tons of sand....

I disagree typical organic soil agriculture does not include the aquaculture component, at least not around here.

iAVs and/or Earthan Bed both specificaly incude a aquaculture component,

cheers

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2 minutes ago, ande said:

Hi C

 

I disagree typical organic soil agriculture does not include the aquaculture component, at least not around here.

iAVs and/or Earthan Bed both specificaly incude a aquaculture component,

cheers

 

Andy, that is a fair clarification...

Since organic soil agriculture also does not involve aquaculture, then my question is moreso focused on the horticulture aspect of iAVS compared to organic soil horticulture, rather than aquaculture aspect.

As iAVS says... "Fish is simply a means to an end"... So, specifically talking about the "end"... which is the horticulture aspect of iAVS...

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Alright, I'll bite, although I'm not getting involved in a back and forth peeing match, which it seems is your goal.

  Organic soil agriculture uses sticks, leaves, animal poop, all kinds of organic stuff that can be composted and spread on the soil to feed and grow crops.  An oversimplification, but, in a nutshell, that's the way I understand organic gardening.  iAVs does kinda the same thing but with fish waste, uneaten food, and anything else that happens to fall into a fish tank and decompose, and is delivered to the "soil" with water from a pump, and drained back to the fish tank by either gravity or another pump in a sump tank.  Again, oversimplification and I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, just being a little wordy just because.  So, in my mind, iAVs can be considered a type of organic soil agriculture, but "organic soil agriculture" is too broad a brush to be just iAVs.  To say the difference between OSA and iAVs is indistinguishable is, again, an oversimplification of both methods. 

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14 minutes ago, Aufin said:

Alright, I'll bite, although I'm not getting involved in a back and forth peeing match, which it seems is your goal.

  Organic soil agriculture uses sticks, leaves, animal poop, all kinds of organic stuff that can be composted and spread on the soil to feed and grow crops.  An oversimplification, but, in a nutshell, that's the way I understand organic gardening.  iAVs does kinda the same thing but with fish waste, uneaten food, and anything else that happens to fall into a fish tank and decompose, and is delivered to the "soil" with water from a pump, and drained back to the fish tank by either gravity or another pump in a sump tank.  Again, oversimplification and I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, just being a little wordy just because.  So, in my mind, iAVs can be considered a type of organic soil agriculture, but "organic soil agriculture" is too broad a brush to be just iAVs.  To say the difference between OSA and iAVs is indistinguishable is, again, an oversimplification of both methods. 

Aufin, this discussion is about opening your mind, rather than keeping it narrow minded surrounded with the ethos of iAVS.

When a soil profile has a significant organic matter percent... excellent water infiltration, including drainage, as well with a notable clay amount... is able to produce crops with significantly less fertilizer, in major part due to its organic content aiding microbial populations... yet, their soil profile is not primarily composed of sand... How is that possible?

My concern is that people are not wanting to see the forest through the trees here.

 

I am only talking about the horticulture aspect of iAVS...

If I were to rely on iAVS for my aquaculture filtration, then I would not have any food fish during the harsh winter months here, unless I had a greenhouse as well as likely spending money on grow lights.

Edited by crsublette (see edit history)

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Hi  again C

 

 

22 minutes ago, crsublette said:

I am only talking about the horticulture aspect of iAVS...

Maybe this is where I get confused ? Without the AQ part it woudn't be a iAVs

22 minutes ago, crsublette said:

If I were to rely on iAVS for my aquaculture filtration, then I would not have any food fish during the harsh winter months here, unless I had a greenhouse as well has likely spending money on grow lights.

 

 

In the winter under such harsh conditions could you do ordinary/common typical organic soil agriculture without a greenhouse and spending money on grow lights ?

Around here in a subarctic/tempered climate, a sandfilter like that in a iAVs would still preform ,but with some build up of nitrates, depending, on plant choises.

cheers

 

Edited by ande (see edit history)

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16 minutes ago, crsublette said:

Aufin, this discussion is about opening your mind, rather than keeping it narrow minded surrounded with the ethos of iAVS.  Yeah?!! Then stop moving the goal posts.  The original question was answered a number of times.  But you then went off on soil profiles, fish loads, winter temperatures, etc.  Make up your mind.

My concern is that people are not wanting to see the forest through the trees here.

 

I am only talking about the horticulture aspect of iAVS...

If I were to rely on iAVS for my aquaculture filtration, then I would not have any food fish during the harsh winter months here, unless I had a greenhouse as well as likely spending money on grow lights.  Really?  And that's a surprise?  In 5 degree weather?  Here's an idea.....don't use iAVs.  Or get a greenhouse.  Just stop trying to pee all over iAVs.  If you don't like it, don't use it.  I'm sure there's plenty of crops that grow quite well up there in "paradise" that wouldn't stand a chance down south.  Wait, I'll have to get a greenhouse.....and put in plenty of air conditioners.  Nah, I'll just complain that I can't grow off season plants down here.

 

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Let me also try to add a few other points to this interesting question and discussions.

Soil is fundamental to organic soil agriculture.
Sand is fundamental in aquaponics using iAVs technique.

Organic soil agriculture practices: Manage soil fertility including tillage and cultivation practices in a manner that maintains or improves the physical, chemical, and biological condition of the soil and minimizes soil erosion. Must manage crop nutients and soil fertility through crop rotations, cover crops, and the application of plant and animal materials (manuring).  In brief, crop nutrient management is essential.

In sand filters, you manage the fish feed.  Essential microbes and animals growing in the sand manage the rest.  System takes care of all other things.  Crop rotation helps but is not essential.

There is active biology in both cultures.  Diverse biology flourishes in sand culture naturally.  In organic hydroponics, biology is added.  Hydroponics farmers need to be smart enough to know which biology to add and how much.  The mycorrhizal fungi that are added might not be the mycorrhizal fungi that are needed for the immediate challenges facing the plant. One strain of mycorrhizal fungi will help with disease suppression but hinder insect resistance. Another might do the opposite. We are not knowledgeable enough to get it right. 

The plant is the key part in both systems.  It selectively feeds the microbes it needs.  Those microbes are intelligent in responding to the needs of the plants. There are many mycorrhizal fungi that are present in a healthy soil/sand system. They are the living interface between the plants and the soil. They will selectively regulate which substances in the soil liquid stream will be permitted to be taken up by the plant. They allow beneficial substances in appropriate amounts and reject damaging substances.

The animals in the soil are also very critical in managing the microbiology. By animals, I mean the beetles, mites, protozoans, spiders, springtails, nematodes, worms, termites, slugs, and small mammals that live in a healthy soil system. These animals are critical in selectively influencing the makeup of the soil bacteria and fungi.  

We do not know yet what animals contribute in iAVs sand filters. We also do not fully understand most of these processes.  What we know is much smaller than what we don’t know. We can participate in and influence this system, but we cannot control it.

Some content is copied from various sources.

Onward..

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3 hours ago, ande said:

Maybe this is where I get confused ? Without the AQ part it woudn't be a iAVs

In the winter under such harsh conditions could you do ordinary/common typical organic soil agriculture without a greenhouse and spending money on grow lights ?

Around here in a subarctic/tempered climate, a sandfilter like that in a iAVs would still preform ,but with some build up of nitrates, depending, on plant choises.

cheers

Ande, the "claim to fame" with iAVS is purely about its plant growth. Yes, fish are part of the system as well, but people aren't talking about iAVS due to how it grows healthy fish. People are primarily talking about iAVS due to how well it grows vegetables with minimum, if any, nutrient deficiencies on a lower energy footprint.

in cold environement conditions, the iAVS sandfilter would be a block of ice. I imagine you are quite well aware how fast water freezes in -6*C (20*F) temperatures. ... and these low temperatures are nothing compared to what the rest of the USA straight north and north east of me. My area is considered to have very mild winters.

Only way this would not be a block of ice is if the iAVS sandfilters were under constant water flow, everything properly insulated, as well as line heaters.

Once temperatures are down below -12*C (10*F), you can toss a cup of water outside and the water will be almost frozen by the time it hits the ground.

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2 hours ago, vkn said:

Let me also try to add a few other points to this interesting question and discussions.

Soil is fundamental to organic soil agriculture.
Sand is fundamental in aquaponics using iAVs technique.

Organic soil agriculture practices: Manage soil fertility including tillage and cultivation practices in a manner that maintains or improves the physical, chemical, and biological condition of the soil and minimizes soil erosion. Must manage crop nutients and soil fertility through crop rotations, cover crops, and the application of plant and animal materials (manuring).  In brief, crop nutrient management is essential.

In sand filters, you manage the fish feed.  Essential microbes and animals growing in the sand manage the rest.  System takes care of all other things.  Crop rotation helps but is not essential.

There is active biology in both cultures.  Diverse biology flourishes in sand culture naturally.  In organic hydroponics, biology is added.  Hydroponics farmers need to be smart enough to know which biology to add and how much.  The mycorrhizal fungi that are added might not be the mycorrhizal fungi that are needed for the immediate challenges facing the plant. One strain of mycorrhizal fungi will help with disease suppression but hinder insect resistance. Another might do the opposite. We are not knowledgeable enough to get it right. 

The plant is the key part in both systems.  It selectively feeds the microbes it needs.  Those microbes are intelligent in responding to the needs of the plants. There are many mycorrhizal fungi that are present in a healthy soil/sand system. They are the living interface between the plants and the soil. They will selectively regulate which substances in the soil liquid stream will be permitted to be taken up by the plant. They allow beneficial substances in appropriate amounts and reject damaging substances.

The animals in the soil are also very critical in managing the microbiology. By animals, I mean the beetles, mites, protozoans, spiders, springtails, nematodes, worms, termites, slugs, and small mammals that live in a healthy soil system. These animals are critical in selectively influencing the makeup of the soil bacteria and fungi.  

We do not know yet what animals contribute in iAVs sand filters. We also do not fully understand most of these processes.  What we know is much smaller than what we don’t know. We can participate in and influence this system, but we cannot control it.

Some content is copied from various sources.

Onward..

 

VKN, I agree with much of what ya said, but appears you are attempting to suggest iAVS is unique...

Crop nutrient management is essential to iAVS as well, just as it is in soil agriculture. This is why you stick to a strict ratio of X plants to Y fish density. This is nutrient management. Fish manuring, through your irrigation, the sand soil profile is the foundation of iAVS. Whether the manure is in a liquid solution or dry chunks, it is still "manuring".

Crop rotations is not essential for soil agriculture as well, although is highly recommended since crop yields often are observed to increase after a rotation.

Biology is also added in any soil agriculture as well. Even farmers like me, are continually adding biology. This idea is not specific to any particular form agriculture. Microbiology is not a permanent feature of soil. In Nature, microbes are meant to come and go and adapt and return, except we want them to always stay. This is why soil microbiologists such as Elaine Ingham have a career to help people understand how to ensure their soil remain inoculated as well as reinoculating soils.

Also, crop rotations are applicable when growing particular crops. A major reason crops are rotated, or fields set fallowed, is so to allow the land to "rest" thus allowing the land to eliminate early markers of soil borne diseases as well as allelopathic chemical buildup. This is in a completely organic environment. If grow beds are disinfected, as done in hydroponics, then, obviously, crop rotations would never be done, but I figure iAVS folk are not going to pursue the expense to disinfect their grow beds.

Tillage and Cultivation practices actually does not improve the physical, chemical, and biological condition of soil and erosion. These practices actually significantly harms soil profiles, microbiology, and increases erosion. You should google, "Dust Bowl". This was a natural event created due to  tillage and cultivation practices. Only fix came once people understood the importance of working with the contours of land and allowing land to fallow, thus preventing back-to-back crop production. Now, tillage and cultivation is primarily done as a function of operational size, sporadically doing it to control weeds from harming yields, and to reduce labor. Unfortunately, tillage and cultivation is a necessary evil that is used on occasion in soil agriculture.

Take iAVS to a very large scale outside of a greenhouse, then I guarantee you will find yourself using tillage and cultivation techniques not too different than what is found in industrial soil agriculture.

The "forming tool" used to create furrows in iAVS would be considered to be a type of tillage/cultivation in preparation of the next crop.

Cover crops, or mulching, might be the only element found moreso in soil agriculture rather than iAVS primarily due to iAVS's chosen methodology of "ferti-gation".

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6 hours ago, crsublette said:

Thank you Gary for your response, irrelevant of the spin involved. I will leave the readers whom choose to do their own research will decide.

Not quite sure what this means.

45 minutes ago, crsublette said:

Ande, the "claim to fame" with iAVS is purely about its plant growth. Yes, fish are part of the system as well, but people aren't talking about iAVS due to how it grows healthy fish. People are primarily talking about iAVS due to how well it grows vegetables with minimum, if any, nutrient deficiencies on a lower energy footprint.

No.....the assertion that iAVs is purely about plant growth is a distortion.  Fish are essential to the system and they need to be healthy for the system to function correctly.  A more accurate assessment of our fish/plant claim is that the fish are a means to the more profitable end of plant production.  

5 hours ago, crsublette said:

My answer...

The difference between typical organic soil agriculture and iAVS is negligible, at best... if not entirely indistinguishable....

...except for the fact one system requires the purchase of a few cubic tons of sand....

This is a gross distortion.  My acknowledgment of the similarity between organic soil agriculture and iAVs was premised solely on the soil microbiology.  Outside of that there are other major considerations not the least of which is water use.  Water in an iAVs is used 140 - 300 times before it leaves the system by way of evapo-transpiration.   iAVs was designed for some of the harshest environments on earth.....in places like Africa and the Middle East. 

Even your observation about the iAVs "requires the purchase of a few cubic tons of sand" ignores the fact that the soil for organic agriculture doesn't just happen.  The preparation of soil to be used for organic food production can be a very comprehensive and expensive undertaking......requiring ammendment, supplementation and plenty of labour.  One of the reasons that organic produce costs more is because its production costs are higher than conventional agriculture.

Gary

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Hi C

 

1 hour ago, crsublette said:

Ande, the "claim to fame" with iAVS is purely about its plant growth. Yes, fish are part of the system as well, but people aren't talking about iAVS due to how it grows healthy fish. People are primarily talking about iAVS due to how well it grows vegetables with minimum, if any, nutrient deficiencies on a lower energy footprint.

in cold environement conditions, the iAVS sandfilter would be a block of ice. I imagine you are quite well aware how fast water freezes in -6*C (20*F) temperatures. ... and these low temperatures are nothing compared to what the rest of the USA straight north and north east of me. My area is considered to have very mild winters.

Only way this would not be a block of ice is if the iAVS sandfilters were under constant water flow, everything properly insulated, as well as line heaters.

Once temperatures are down below -12*C (10*F), you can toss a cup of water outside and the water will be almost frozen by the time it hits the ground.

As I 'w said before , the ridges or "furrows" in a intermidate recipriotating sandfilter (iAVs) are of a particulare importance in cold climates.

It will act as "ice sheet" brakers, if the surface water should freeze before it has drained in to the filter.

No ice bloks forms in North Europe/America (cold/subarctic climates) where these have been in use tested +/- a hundred years Why would it freeze in a iAVs aplication ?

The efluent water from the fish tank (salmonides), going in to the filter is 15-18 C, it will have drained in to the sand long before it freezes, and it helps maintaining a higher temp C/F in the rootzone of your plants (part of your pasive heating system if constructed right)

I guess you didn't look much in to this type of fitering technique , ;)

Wasabi could be a interesting candidate for winter growth in a cold climate salmonide operation if you wan't to grow plants all season.

cheers

 

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