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Strider

Dual loop system build.

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On the BYAP forum mostly.... search for RupertofOZ's "mega hybrid system"... (and the "blue barrel" system)

 

The later systems you can find in my FB albums... "John Burgess"

John, I just added two nft gutters to my aquaponics and they seem to be doing well. Did you see any big difference in growth of leafy greens when using hydroponics vs aquaponics? That is assuming little if any additives in the aquaponics.

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Indeed, that is why Dr. Ingham also chose an aerobic water device to culture her microbrial fertilizers from manure and compost due to the speed of the process. She also briefly talks about how this is probably sustainable in a water growing environment due to water also having its own unique "food web" in conjunction with the plant's roots.

Dr. Ingham's classes are definitely worth attending. I have been saving money to attend one since the classes are College Course priced from her Soil Institute. From my email exchanges of other students, they definitely highly recommend the classes. http://www.lifeinthesoilclasses.com/

Dr. Timmons and Ebeling, in conjunction with Cornell university, also do an online class that is very well worth the price. This course also grants you direct communication with Timmons and Ebeling for any questions you may have about the material. http://fish.bee.cornell.edu/distance-course/

Much like Mr. Van der Werf's online premium forum for hobbyists, which is insanely cheap, and definitely well worth it. http://www.articles.earthanedge.com

Honestly, you will find none of their information for free on any forum or, if you do, then it will most likely be skewed or quite lacking in detail, accuracy, and explanation. Forums have its relevance in other arenas, which is quite helpful as well.

Strider, you should think about investing in this continuing education material.

To be honest I cannot wrap my head around paying for a hobby experiment when there are forums like this one with people to compare notes, successes, and failures. It just takes the fun out of it. I don't want to learn about the microbes and interrelationships of what happens on that micro level. I have had great success with growing using aquaponics and I am now looking for tips and tricks to tweek it to make it better. But I do enjoy reading those science papers, say wow, and move on. :) Edited by Strider (see edit history)

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Quick question...

What fuels your disbelief? ....especially after considering Dr. Ingham and AP both use the same mechanisms to culture mineralization...

I am also quite curious if you have identified the microbial life involved in the mineralization tank effluent to see if it is much different than what Dr. Ingham teaches...

I imagine the concentrations might be different, but I would be quite curious if the actual classification of microbes involved were entirely different.

I am simply looking for a persuasion for me to hold your same disbelief away from Ingham.

Seems to me that environment is everything. Soil just cannot be the same as flood. Concentrations would be much different changing the whole interaction and therefore effectiveness of the microbe processes. For one thing according to the Dr. Soil Ph is created by the plants. That cannot happen in water. Edited by Strider (see edit history)

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Seems to me that environment is everything. Soil just cannot be the same as flood. Concentrations would be much different changing the whole interaction and therefore effectiveness of the microbe processes.

 

Yes, concentrations would be different. This is the entire point of Dr. Ingham changing the "concentrations" so to favor a bacterial environment for particular plants and then changing the "concentrations" so to favor a fungal environment for particular plants.

 

Yes, both these bacterial and fungal environments can be cultured and function within a flooded water environment... which why Dr. Ingham chose an oxygenated water (flooded) environment to culture them.

 

... it is the oxygen concentration and circulation that is important... not important whether the environment is "flooded"... if this were not true, then she would not have used a flooded environment to culture them.

 

 

For one thing according to the Dr. Soil Ph is created by the plants. That cannot happen in water.

 

pH is created by plants... but this happens in water... No where does Dr. Ingham state this cannot happen in water...

 

Plants release anion hydroxides so to capture nitrates (NO3-) and this increases the surrounding pH.

 

Plant release cation hydrogens so to capture unionized ammonia (NH3) and this decreases the surrounding pH.

 

This is not only witnessed by soil microbiologists, but also witness by hydroponic practitioners.

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To be honest I cannot wrap my head around paying for a hobby experiment when there are forums like this one with people to compare notes, successes, and failures. It just takes the fun out of it. I don't want to learn about the microbes and interrelationships of what happens on that micro level. I have had great success with growing using aquaponics and I am now looking for tips and tricks to tweek it to make it better. But I do enjoy reading those science papers, say wow, and move on. :)

 

That's fine and well... but part of having Wisdom is learning from other's knowledge and mistakes so that you do not repeat the mistakes.

 

 

Of course you can simply "make a system work". People do that everyday in just their soil gardens in their backyards.

 

 

However, Tough to look for tips/tricks to tweek something if you do not understand the underlying fundamentals... which is where higher level education comes form.

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That's fine and well... but part of having Wisdom is learning from other's knowledge and mistakes so that you do not repeat the mistakes.

 

 

Of course you can simply "make a system work". People do that everyday in just their soil gardens in their backyards.

 

 

However, Tough to look for tips/tricks to tweek something if you do not understand the underlying fundamentals... which is where higher level education comes form.

If the system works, what else is there?

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That's fine and well... but part of having Wisdom is learning from other's knowledge and mistakes so that you do not repeat the mistakes.

Of course you can simply "make a system work". People do that everyday in just their soil gardens in their backyards.

However, Tough to look for tips/tricks to tweek something if you do not understand the underlying fundamentals... which is where higher level education comes form.

Sorry, but I just cannot wrap my head around the argument that in a water environment where the water is at 7.5 Ph there is a plant sending out a Force Field keeping Ph at 6.5. The constant flood and drain effect would, it seems to me, prevent the plants ability to maintain a stable environment. Soil I can see. Moving water is a different animal. Has the Dr. Actually proven the water Ph theory? Is there something I can read that is not soil related that shows a plants ability to maintain a lower Ph in moving water?

Is the Dr. Talking about a flooded environment in soil or in an inert media as is used in aquaponics?

Edited by Strider (see edit history)

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Yeah, sorry, not going to into an argument about this, but seems like this is where it is heading.

 

C'est la vie.

 

I will leave ya to your discussion here Strider...

Oh sure, just come in and cause hate and discontent and then abandon ship! Lol. You have not our permission to leave! :)

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Here is a song to go with IAVs https://youtu.be/0p_1QSUsbsM

 

Yes.....it has the appearance of magic - but its benefits are real enough.   More food for less money - and less water - than any other food production system on the planet.

 

That's quite distinct, of course, from the magick of aquaponics; the only real part of which is that bullsh!t gets turned into money......for the benefit of a few.

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To be honest I cannot wrap my head around paying for a hobby experiment when there are forums like this one with people to compare notes, successes, and failures. It just takes the fun out of it. I don't want to learn about the microbes and interrelationships of what happens on that micro level. I have had great success with growing using aquaponics and I am now looking for tips and tricks to tweek it to make it better. But I do enjoy reading those science papers, say wow, and move on. :)

 

LOL... You become a Bernie supporter now? Looks like you want something for free that others pay or work for ;)

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Any right-thinking American should be a Bernie supporter - he's the only option if you look at the US presidential race from a humanistic and planet perspective.

 

lol.. you poor misguided socialist anarchist civilisation destroying fool...

 

There's no way you're gunna get an invite to the McDonald Gump saviour of humanity Xmas party with that sort of pinko thinking... :D

Edited by RupertofOZ (see edit history)

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Sorry, but I just cannot wrap my head around the argument that in a water environment where the water is at 7.5 Ph there is a plant sending out a Force Field keeping Ph at 6.5. The constant flood and drain effect would, it seems to me, prevent the plants ability to maintain a stable environment. Soil I can see. Moving water is a different animal. Has the Dr. Actually proven the water Ph theory? Is there something I can read that is not soil related that shows a plants ability to maintain a lower Ph in moving water?

Is the Dr. Talking about a flooded environment in soil or in an inert media as is used in aquaponics?

 

Never suggested what you wrote.... I stated the "surrounding area"... Quite obviously, if the "surrounding area" was a DWC water pool, then the entire DWC water pool would be its "surrounding area"... likely the same for NFT as well..

 

As has been mentioned many times already... one variable likely attributing to your pH problems in your plant loop is that the plants are releasing hydroxides (increasing pH) due to the plants primarily absorbing Nitrates as their nitrogen source.... and your plant loops high pH caters to nitrification to create more nitrates....

 

There are likely other variables as well, but I bet ya this is one of them.

 

 

Is there something I can read that is not soil related that shows a plants ability to maintain a lower Ph in moving water?

 

I don't think anyone said plants have the ability to maintain a lower pH... but what was said... plants have an impact on your pH and you can try to control this influence...

 

 

As an example of how plants impact water pH...

 

I have better articles in my disorganized digital library but I just did a quick google for ya... it was the very first search result... (https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=hydroponic+nitrate+hydroxide)

 

Understanding pH in Hydroponics (http://scienceinhydroponics.com/2010/06/understanding-ph-in-hydroponics-part-no-1.html)  ... quoted below...

 

 

When nitrate is absorbed – an ion with a negative charge- the plant does the opposite and exchanges the nitrate for an OH(-), the pH of the solution is increased.

Edited by crsublette (see edit history)

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Strider,

 

 

Now... What do you think happens if the plant is primarily fed ammonia (NH3+) rather than nitrate?  

 

... now, obviously, there will always be nitrates at some level present that will be dumped into the plant loop.... but you can take action to reduce even more nitrates from being dumped... such as... ... the 5~6 pH in plant loop will slow down the nitrification (although not stop it) so that the plants have a chance to consume the ammonia before it converts to nitrates.

 

...gradually, slowly reduce the plant loop's pH to 5~6 (most likely by acid dosage) and then dump the fish water into the plant loop (prior to this water reaching your bio-filter) after a fish feeding...

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...now... If your system already has a tremendously huge abundance of nitrates, then your plant loop will likely always have pH tendency to go up....

 

So, likely, until your fish density becomes better balanced with your plant density to prevent the huge abundance of nitrates, you will likely always struggle with a higher pH in the plant loop...

 

 

In this situation, where both loops are already all out of balance, to me at least, this would persuade me to tell you to simply return the plant loop back to the fish loop.... and just stick to the traditional single loop idea.... that is if you do not want to acid dose your plant loop.

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LOL... You become a Bernie supporter now? Looks like you want something for free that others pay or work for ;)

Lol, not at all! If people are slaving to learn something and if they had to pay to get the knowledge they can take it to the grave for all I care. See, they are free to try to sell it and I am free to refuse to buy it.

Almost seems as if you are trying to guilt me...

Edited by Strider (see edit history)

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...now... If your system already has a tremendously huge abundance of nitrates, then your plant loop will likely always have pH tendency to go up....

 

So, likely, until your fish density becomes better balanced with your plant density to prevent the huge abundance of nitrates, you will likely always struggle with a higher pH in the plant loop...

 

 

In this situation, where both loops are already all out of balance, to me at least, this would persuade me to tell you to simply return the plant loop back to the fish loop.... and just stick to the traditional single loop idea.... that is if you do not want to acid dose your plant loop.

Dual loop remember? My fish density is not affected by my plant density. However, my plants would suffer from to low a fish density.

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Dual loop remember? My fish density is not affected by my plant density. However, my plants would suffer from to low a fish density.

Sorry, you have not convinced me. Plants ability to affect the Ph in a moving flooded water system is highly limited imho.

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