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ITT we discuss Decoupled / Open loop / Multi-circuit aquaponics systems

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Here ya go...

 

You will find your answer in the threads:

1) System idea based on Pauls Dual Loop

2) Post#379 from Fellow APN member building the world's biggest commercial AP system

 

Think that's it... You'll find your answer there...

 

 

Also, keep in mind, as Ryan mentioned in his videos, the reason why he has so much excess water is due to his filter dumps... This is due to his filter dumps are very inefficient, that is high water to solids ratio... So you could do a dual inlet design that Swede talked about so to try to reduce by better concentrating the solids... Check out the thread... 5 Gallon Radial Flow Settler Dual Outlet and talked about in post#41 of thread media for static bed filter. So... increase your solids portion of your solids to water ratio in the filter dumps and you will significantly reduce your excess water discharge.

 

thanks for that. A little daunting but will give it a try.

 

Anyone have a generic number on what percent of water a properly designed RAS system should lose daily to filter cleaning?

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Indeed... a properly engineered commercial RAS system minimises the water required for solids removal....

 

In a hot, huimd environment, your water loss will be from plant respiration... and tomatoes are like sponges...

 

You'll need to determine what water losses you will have in your plant loop... and figure out how you're going to replace it... and from where... or how to minimise your plant loop loses...

 

If you do so from your RAS... you're robbing Peter to pay Paul... and will have to replenish your RAS...

 

 

Quite amazing how much water plants respire and consume...

 

The high yielding corn grown on my farm soaks up water incredibly crazy fast when the plant is tassling starting its peak water usage cycle while filling out the ear.

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Indeed... a properly engineered commercial RAS system minimises the water required for solids removal....

 

In a hot, huimd environment, your water loss will be from plant respiration... and tomatoes are like sponges...

 

You'll need to determine what water losses you will have in your plant loop... and figure out how you're going to replace it... and from where... or how to minimise your plant loop loses...

 

If you top your plant loop up from your RAS... you're robbing Peter to pay Paul... and will have to replenish your RAS...

 

Yes, this is what I'm kind of getting out. Seems like you would have to have a larger RAS system to supply your plant loop and not waste water. Granted the results will be superior to a closed loop system but not sure about the efficiency.

 

I think if I was to set up a decoupled system I'd have greens set up within the fish loop as they are proven to work just fine with minimal water management and have the fruiting plants on the seperate loop which need more supplementation and will appreciate the PH adjustment more.

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sweet bugger all... in a properly designed commercial RAS.... :D

 

So this goes back to my point of why aren't people trying to return the plant loop water back to the RAS? I would feel a lot better about taking as much water as I need from the RAS for the plants if I knew whatever the plants didn't use was going back to the fish.

 

Anyone know an efficient way to treat that plant loop water for it to be reintroduced to the fish?

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thanks for that. A little daunting but will give it a try.

 

Anyone have a generic number on what percent of water a properly designed RAS system should lose daily to filter cleaning?

 

Really depends on what you are doing with the RAS system... As Mr. Weissenbach points out, due to regulations, his water loss per filter cleaning is close to zero as possible, as talked about in post#22 in start of sieve filter build.

 

 

If you top your plant loop up from your RAS... you're robbing Peter to pay Paul... and will have to replenish your RAS...

 

This is done already though... Except now... with more control...

 

 

Yes, this is what I'm kind of getting out. Seems like you would have to have a larger RAS system to supply your plant loop and not waste water. Granted the results will be superior to a closed loop system but not sure about the efficiency.

 

One major compromising factor of closed loop systems is pH management... Simply better for fish's physiology (thus less stress, better FCRs) to have a higher pH and there's better control mechanisms with a higher pH... Simply better for plants at a pH of 5.5 due to nutrient availability plus you can use neem oil (for aphids) and other products without risk of harming the fish.

 

 

So this goes back to my point of why aren't people trying to return the plant loop water back to the RAS? I would feel a lot better about taking as much water as I need from the RAS for the plants if I knew whatever the plants didn't use was going back to the fish.

 

Anyone know an efficient way to treat that plant loop water for it to be reintroduced to the fish?

 

Returning plant water back to the RAS does not help fish... Fresh clean water is what helps fish...

 

Returning plant water back to the RAS is going to be the toughest idea to get out of your head since traditional aquaponics constantly repeats the practice, drilling it into your head

 

I think you're making the water management aspect into a bigger ordeal than it really is.

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Humm... Tropical Farmer.. that's you on the right....(with your Dad)....

 

http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=449887#p449887

 

You seem to have a close resemblance to someone else I've seen living in Thailand doing AP.... perhaps another blood relation... :D

post-3396-0-76868900-1425362640_thumb.jp

Edited by RupertofOZ (see edit history)

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Humm... Tropical Farmer.. that's you on the right....(with your Dad)....

 

You seem to have a close resemblance to someone else I've seen living in Thailand doing AP.... perhaps a blood relation... :D

 

That's me about 5 kilos ago! No relation to anyone in Thailand, just a hobbyist guy who likes to ponder AP things but I do know who you are reffering to.

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That's me about 5 kilos ago! No relation to anyone in Thailand, just a hobbyist guy who likes to ponder AP things but I do know who you are reffering to.

 

Lol... so these days.. you're just a shadow of your former self... ;)

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I think you're making the water management aspect into a bigger ordeal than it really is.

 

A big selling point to me personally for AP was the water recirculation and water usage. If I wanted to design a drain to waste system I'd just go hydro probably. I love the concept of seperating the loops but would like to see it done with some water conservation in mind.

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No relation to anyone in Thailand, just a hobbyist guy who likes to ponder AP things but I do know who you are reffering to.

 

Not just an uncanny resemblance... but you seem to have found the same supplier(s)... and encountered the same problems....

 

http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=458036#p458036

 

Extraordinary... even seem to have the same taste in beer...  :D

Edited by RupertofOZ (see edit history)

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Not just an uncanny resemblance... but you seem to have found the same supplier(s)... and encountered the same problems....

 

Extraordinary... even seem to have the same taste in beer...  :D

 

http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=458036#p458036

 

We live on planet Thailand. I say planet because although it's just another country it feels like another planet. Sourcing speciallized material is tough, the language barrier makes it hard to explain your needs and there are cultural barriers that on the surface people would write off to a lack of open mindedness among the locals but it's deeper than that.

Expats make up a small % of the population and AP is a micro % of that. So it's pretty natrual to run into the same people in such a micro circle of something like AP in Thailand and why not share where we have found things to be sourced. On that post I was answering a specific question to a fellow AP'er in Thailand.

The only reason I joined this forum today is that other thread was like Fox news, toxic and full of misinformation. There are a lot of smart people here (and some trolls) so thought this could be an informative thread to participate in. I don't know where your trust issues lie but you should stop being so suspicious of everyone. It comes off really annoying which I guess may be your goal in the end.

Edited by Tropical Farmer (see edit history)

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Hi Charles,

 

The entire reason why anaerobic digestate becomes created is due to the fact that anaerobic digestion does NOT "produce much less refractory solids" than aerobic digestion, which is why anaerobic digestate requires to be further broken down aerobically. Think about it...  ;)

 

Don't need to think much about it.  

 

Even in my dotage I can recall much of my wastewater treatment operation training and I'm sure that, if you want to google it, you'll find that anaerobic digestion produces less refractory solids than aerobic digestion.  

 

In fact, one wastewater treatment process has the excess sludge from the activated sludge digester going to an aerobic digester for two reasons……one is to reduce its volume and the other is to assist dewatering.  Dewatering of the sludge is one of the known disadvantages of the activated sludge process.

 

In any case, check out this document - see Table 1 on Page 107…..and then there's this document that says…..."Anaerobic digestion is commonly used to treat sludges in the first areas of a wastewater treatment plant. This process is popular because it is able to stabilize the water with little biomass production."  Then there's this document…..check Table 1 which states that anaerobic digestion produces 1/5 to 1/10 of the sludge of aerobic digestion.

 

Think about it…. ;)

 

Yes, I am quite aware of that...

 

This is why I mentioned the bit about adding worm castings from the vermicompost bed.  :)

 

Adding worm castings to an aerobic digester is nothing like the activated sludge process.  

 

Activated sludge is about continuous recirculating a portion of the old feedstock in the with new feedstock - to accelerate the proliferation of oxidising bacteria.

 

Gary

Edited by Gary Donaldson (see edit history)

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Hi TF,

 

You can call yourself Tropical Farmer (or anything else you want) and you'll be welcome here.  I looked at the blue system you and your dad built - very nice indeed.

 

Looking forward to hearing more from you.

 

Gary

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Perhaps waste water treatment does it that way as part of it's primary objective of remediating the water... denitrifying, off gassing etc...

 

And just accepts the inevitable end consequence of the sludge....

 

Kind of deal with all the nasties in the water.. or what could become nasty... and just deal with the sludge at the end.. ;)

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Aerobic digestion (in a wastewater treatment context) is more cost effective in small to medium situations.  Anaerobic digestion comes into its own when you are dealing with the waste of a large city…..for reasons of the economies of scale.  

 

As I stated earlier, the two processes may be used together - where the raw sludge will be drawn off of the inflow and sent to the digester (anaerobic) to generate methane (much of which will be used to keep the digester at the optimum temperature) and possibly to generate electricity to run the plant.  

 

The effluent from that process may be put through an activated sludge unit….largely because of its shorter digestion period.  Rather than deal with the problem of dewatering the excess sludge from the activated sludge process it will also be sent across to the methane digester.

 

Interestingly, the first step in the primary sedimentation process is to blast the incoming sewage with air.  That helps all of the stuff that's entrained in the fats and surfactants (bubbles) to separate out and to settle to the bottom of the primary sedimentation tank.  It also optimises the sludge for the anaerobic digestion that follows.

 

A large wastewater treatment plant is an interesting place to be if you can learn to ignore the odour.  Most of the inflow into a large metropolitan plant is industrial wastewater (up to 95%) and, when it rains, your inflows become huge…..largely because of massive leaks in the underground infrastructure.

 

All of which has no bearing on the matter of "de-coupling."

 

I'm struggling to think of what benefit would be had from anaerobic treatment of fish tank effluent in the volumes that we'd be likely to encounter.  I can see it adding to the complexity of the system without any tangible return that I can see.

Gary

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This might prove useful to members that are getting lost in the terms being thrown around in this thread.

 

http://www.academia.edu/4607989/FBBR_and_MBBR_Bioreactors_for_Sewage_Treatment

 

http://www.conteches.com/knowledge-center/pdh-article-series/introduction-to-fixed-film-bio-reactors.aspx

 

 

Where I think we're not connecting on the anaerobic process  with a single flow through loop is the time period required for denitrification -- a few weeks.

 

An example I would give in a system that was flow through would be like chewing your food before it goes to the stomach.  It starts the break down process and weakens bonds, but the real digestion starts in the stomach.

 

With a short residence/dwell time there will be very little denitrification.  Recall that carbon must  be added for that to happen.  Unless heating is provided the temps typically ran at will not start methanogenesis either. 

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I'm struggling to think of what benefit would be had from anaerobic treatment of fish tank effluent in the volumes that we'd be likely to encounter.  I can see it adding to the complexity of the system without any tangible return that I can see.

 

Ditto... ;)

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Fluid, or moving bed biofilters are aerobic.... how does that relate to anaerobic digestion/mineralisation?

 

And I don't believe that anaerobic digestion requires an addition of carbon at all... it will inherently breakdown any carbohydrate, fat or protein source available anyway...

 

Aerobic mineralisation/digestion.. on the other hand.. does indeed benefit from carbon addition.. ;)

Edited by RupertofOZ (see edit history)

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With a short residence/dwell time there will be very little denitrification.  Recall that carbon must  be added for that to happen.  Unless heating is provided the temps typically ran at will not start methanogenesis either. 

 

Agreed... you either have to leave the anaerobic "filter" uncleaned for a length of time to acheive either (sometimes done in various systems unintentionally)....

 

Or it's a complete waste of time...

 

So leaving aside any discussion of possible benefits... if any...

 

How does having a flow through anaerobic tank connected to an aerobic tank.. have any benefit what so ever... unless left to become anaerobic for some time...

 

And given that its usually connected in the end to a sump that supplies the plant loop... and presumably requires to do so fairly regularly.... it just seems a complete waste of time...

 

It would also infer.. in order for it to retain to the point of anaerobic.... that the solids drain from the solids filters... could only be done periodically...

 

Probably around the time that they went anaerobic... :D

 

 

Sorry, but I think the incorporation of an anaerobic tank... in a mineralisation loop.... is just pure nonsense... especially as a first stage....  or any other stage for that matter... unless offline (in it's own decoupled loop :D )

Edited by RupertofOZ (see edit history)

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