Strider

British PM announces tough new anti-terror measures

68 posts in this topic

Well our friends across the pond get it. We are at war, or we should be, with ISIS. They have certainly declared war on us. I don't understand what Obama is doing. He seems lost and admitted he does not even have a strategy for dealing with the spread of this very dangerous force.

There is a time for peace and a time for war. When war is thrust upon you the options are few.

I have never seen a man misread a threat as badly as Obama. He should never have pulled the US out of Iraq. He should have negotiated until he got the SOFA agreement. You can bet the Iraqi government is willing to give it to us now.

But I have a strong suspicion Obama used that as an excuse to get out. He simply under estimated the threat.

We deal with them now, or we deal with a stronger force latter. Half measures will not work.

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We already are doing what Cameron is announcing with DHS, TSA, NSA, CIA, FBI, ATF, and a whole host of other agencies on board. Have you ever seen how many security agencies we have in the U.S. Strider? I stopped counting at 20. There's no reason to announce it from the roof tops. And where the hell is congress? Oh that's right they're on vaca again and didn't get a damn thing done before they left and haven't for some time now.

As far as the SOFA agreement you must have missed the announcement -- we got it.

I love how the right blames our president for pulling out of Iraq when it was already planned by his predecessor.

As far as underestimating the threat perhaps you're right. The idea was to get Iraq self sufficient. How many decades do we have to babysit the Iraqi government until they can defend themselves? If hundreds of them turn tail and run from less than 100 ISIL or ISIS why do you blame our president? They need to stop fighting within before they can defend from the outside. And it we can't stick around forever.

For crying out loud Al Maliki didn't even want to defend his countrymen because he was a Shiite and they were Sunnies and Kurds. WTF?

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)

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I don't understand what Obama is doing.

Read this analysis, then you might get a grasp the matter

http://warontherocks.com/2014/08/dont-bs-the-american-people-about-iraq-syria-and-isil/#_

 

cheers

Sidenote: The US military comanders where worried about what would become of 50.000 Sunnys (civil servants) that was fired, the only sunny voice, with any experience and propper education in gowerning a country (Paul Bremer Day 1)

They protested(The US military comanders) loudly when 300.000 (sunnys) soldiers, with their veapons/skils, good education/training (US) and combat experience,(against the original invations plan) was dissmised (Paul Bremer Day 7)

72 houers later the first atack on the airportroad 2 US MP's killed and from there on it went downhill.

So how did ISIL come about I wonder :goodjob:

Sunnys makes about 20% of the population, and are financialy suportet by the Saudis a US alied :crazysmile:

 

cheers

Edited by ande (see edit history)
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Sunnys makes about 20% of the population, and are financialy suportet by the Saudis a US alied :crazysmile:

 

cheers

 

That may just be "the elephant in the room".     Does anyone wonder where these rebels/terrorist get the financing for the military grade hardware to attack with? How long would a terror cell last without supples and funding from outside sources?

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We already are doing what Cameron is announcing with DHS, TSA, NSA, CIA, FBI, ATF, and a whole host of other agencies in board. Have you ever seen how many security agencies we have in the U.S. Strider? I stopped counting at 20. There's no reason to announce it from the roof tops. And where the hell is congress? Oh that's right they're on vaca again and didn't get a damn thing done before they left and haven't for some time now.

As far as the SOFA agreement you must have missed the announcement -- we got it.

I love how the right blames our president for pulling out of Iraq when it was already planned by his predecessor.

As far as underestimating the threat perhaps you're right. The idea was to get Iraq self sufficient. How many decades do we have to babysit the Iraqi government until they can defend themselves? If hundreds of them turn tail and run from less than 100 ISIL or ISIS why do you blame our president? They need to stop fighting within before they can defend from the outside. And it we can't stick around forever.

For crying out loud Al Maliki didn't even want to defend his countrymen because he was a Shiite and they were Sunnies and Kurds. WTF?

We should have left a contingency force there for the foreseeable future until the new government was secure and the problems between the factions ironed out. But that is hindsight.  

What is not hindsight is the remarkable amount of pushing it is taking to get Obama to do something in a timely manner. He has always been a weak leader and strictly reactionary.  

Yes, get Iraq self sufficient but not by pulling out troops to early.  As for intelligence, you are correct, we have a good intelligence network and they knew the growing threat of ISIS. It was not new to the administration, only to us civilians out of the know.  Yet Obama did nothing.  But you are right, I should not blame the President that was in office and made the final decision to pull out, I will do what Obama loves to do when he errs, I blame Bush!  

And no, I had not heard of a new SOFA agreement since the first one expired. But5 if we did get one recently, that is as I said given the desperation in Iraq. They want us there and will agree to nearly anything now.  

Plans change and are always dictated by the circumstances on the ground. With a destabilized Syria, and Iran's interference in Iraq, we should have stayed.  But that is just my opinion.......

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That may just be "the elephant in the room".     Does anyone wonder where these rebels/terrorist get the financing for the military grade hardware to attack with? How long would a terror cell last without supples and funding from outside sources?

 

ISIS gets their money from many sources including racketeering they offer "protection services" and they collect a "tax".  I am fairly certain they are selling oil as well.  This terrorist force differs from others in that they have resources and money. We should be depriving them of that and their lives.

Senator Obama was one of the few who voted against going into Iraq and it should come as no surprise he was in hurry to get out regardless of the situation or consequences. I oft think he lives in a World of his own making devoid of reality.

Edited by Strider (see edit history)

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You're darn right he was not for going in in the first place. I sure wish most of the rest of our congress critters would not have rubber stamped one of the biggest blunders of the 21st century - the invasion of Iraq. At last ol' man Bush former head of the CIA knew better.

You can blame Obama all you want, but that screw up has cost us dearly and is the gift that keeps on giving not only for the U.S. but the rest of the world. Saddam was a bad man but he kept those fanatic terrorists in line. Head first in a wood chipper even makes a potential martyr think twice.

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What if there had been no intervention in Iraq to cause the destabilisation in the first place,would things be any worse than they are now?

 

Years ago I used to work with Pakistani crew mostly from the remote mountainous regions ,and they told me that a man with a large family was a strong man because then if anybody shot him there were plenty of male relations to take revenge on the shooter or his family, these disputes last generations until the initial cause has  long been forgotten.

 

So what chance has a foreign power to solve these ongoing tribal and personal disputes.

 

Only the consensus of a people can effect lasting change.intervention by foreigners makes things worse.

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What if there had been no intervention in Iraq to cause the destabilisation in the first place,would things be any worse than they are now?

 .

I believe it would have been. When we took out Saddam we created a power vacuum.

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You're darn right he was not for going in in the first place. I sure wish most of the rest of our congress critters would not have rubber stamped one of the biggest blunders of the 21st century - the invasion of Iraq. At last ol' man Bush former head of the CIA knew better.

You can blame Obama all you want, but that screw up has cost us dearly and is the gift that keeps on giving not only for the U.S. but the rest of the world. Saddam was a bad man but he kept those fanatic terrorists in line. Head first in a wood chipper even makes a potential martyr think twice.

So we tolerate a murderer because he keeps other murderers in check? Sadaam was a loose cannon in the ME invading two other countries.....he was ISIS without the religious fanaticism.

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What if there had been no intervention in Iraq to cause the destabilisation in the first place,would things be any worse than they are now?

 

Years ago I used to work with Pakistani crew mostly from the remote mountainous regions ,and they told me that a man with a large family was a strong man because then if anybody shot him there were plenty of male relations to take revenge on the shooter or his family, these disputes last generations until the initial cause has  long been forgotten.

 

So what chance has a foreign power to solve these ongoing tribal and personal disputes.

 

Only the consensus of a people can effect lasting change.intervention by foreigners makes things worse.

If those conflicts stayed regional we could overlook them. But oil makes it a matter to pay attention to as a destabilizing of oil sales would have serious consequences for much of the World. And now we see that islamic Extremists are not thinking just locally. In fact they have been attacking America for decades.

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Read this analysis, then you might get a grasp the matter

http://warontherocks.com/2014/08/dont-bs-the-american-people-about-iraq-syria-and-isil/#_

 

cheers

Sidenote: The US military comanders where worried about what would become of 50.000 Sunnys (civil servants) that was fired, the only sunny voice, with any experience and propper education in gowerning a country (Paul Bremer Day 1)

They protested(The US military comanders) loudly when 300.000 (sunnys) soldiers, with their veapons/skils, good education/training (US) and combat experience,(against the original invations plan) was dissmised (Paul Bremer Day 7)

72 houers later the first atack on the airportroad 2 US MP's killed and from there on it went downhill.

So how did ISIL come about I wonder :goodjob:

Sunnys makes about 20% of the population, and are financialy suportet by the Saudis a US alied :crazysmile:

 

cheers

Sorry I never really replied to this. You can speak more plainly than this can't you? But this is history. We need to discuss and react to the clear and PRESENT threat. ISIL is just one of many Islamic groups that have been in existence in one form or another since the beginning of the religion. This group is not something new to the modern era. That is what makes it so dangerous.

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Hi Ravnis

 

 

That may just be "the elephant in the room".   

 

Thats one way to put it :redface:  But that "elephant" contain no more exstremists/radicals %wise, than any other religous/ethnic group, they are just treated as a homogenus minoriety regardles, so the exstremists/radicals are the ones in power, for the time being.

All forseen and predicted in the overall invation plan. (the plan got changed by politicians in Pentagon, after the invation, and against a lot of alied invation partners & against, the UN mandate, there was a plan for the peace)

 

The plan was to keep, the teatchers/soscialworkers/renovation-technitian/fireman/nurse/profesor/librerian........

,in short : a good functioning civilian infrastructure/body,  Iraqu was a seculare state, that included all religions, also kurds, the sunnies had more priveliges indeed, and surtan groups (shia/kurds/christians) where at times excluded and represed yes, even gassed (remember Saddam gassed his "own people") we had axcepted all that. (he was still a good guy in the region).

 

Quote: political program :

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, as vice chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council, formally the al-Bakr's second-in-command, Saddam built a reputation as a progressive, effective politician.[31] At this time, Saddam moved up the ranks in the new government by aiding attempts to strengthen and unify the Ba'ath party and taking a leading role in addressing the country's major domestic problems and expanding the party's following.

After the Ba'athists took power in 1968, Saddam focused on attaining stability in a nation riddled with profound tensions. Long before Saddam, Iraq had been split along social, ethnic, religious, and economic fault lines: Sunni versus Shi'ite, Arab versus Kurd, tribal chief versus urban merchant, nomad versus peasant.[32] The desire for stable rule in a country rife with factionalism led Saddam to pursue both massive repression and the improvement of living standards.[32]

Saddam actively fostered the modernization of the Iraqi economy along with the creation of a strong security apparatus to prevent coups within the power structure and insurrections apart from it. Ever concerned with broadening his base of support among the diverse elements of Iraqi society and mobilizing mass support, he closely followed the administration of state welfare and development programs.

At the center of this strategy was Iraq's oil. On 1 June 1972, Saddam oversaw the seizure of international oil interests, which, at the time, dominated the country's oil sector. A year later, world oil prices rose dramatically as a result of the 1973 energy crisis, and skyrocketing revenues enabled Saddam to expand his agenda........................................  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein

quote end

 

By western "standards" he was a good arab leader, compared with many other arab leaders, also a good alied of the US, that kept Iran in check.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War

 

Remember the USA embassy ocupation, by the Iranian "students" and how USA, was tossed out of Iran, after the Iranian revolution,

quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution

The Iranian Revolution (also known as the Islamic Revolution or the 1979 Revolution;[4][5][6][7][8][9]Persian: انقلاب اسلامی, EnghelÄbe EslÄmi or انقلاب بیست Ùˆ دو بهمن) refers to events involving the overthrow of the Pahlavi dynasty under Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, who was supported by the United States,  quote end

 

So after the former "good" arab leader, the king (shja) of Iran, suported by the USA, is overthrown, and replaced (by the people)

the new good guy is now, Sadam Hussein, & by coincidence ? this new alied (of the US) declare war on the former alied Iran(the now, new elephant, in the region) the year after.

 

Man, when are we, in the west, going to learn, from our former/ongoing mistakes?

I say we, because allthou, the US, might be sitting in the driver seat, we all participate (more or less).

 

It's not for us to decide, howm is to be "the elephant" of differente states/countrys of the world, IMO

 

Does anyone wonder where these rebels/terrorist get the financing for the military grade hardware to attack with? How long would a terror cell last without supples and funding from outside sources?

Well there is a large trail of Drugs & Oil, to the "West" (North America & EurAsia) and the millitary grade hardware and "advisors" on the same trails but in the oposite direction.

It's a never ending story, or so it seems :angry:

 

I'm not blaming A particular President/Primeminister of the USA, Russia,EU,China,Korea, UK, AU, Norway,.......................

I think the overall population (majority) around the world. consists of deasant people, that just want to be able to do their own thing, in a safe environement,walking your kid to first day in kindergarden, go fishing, atend work etc.

Without a constant fear, of being chaught up in a fight amongst warlords. that be in the citys of Mexico, a riot in Los Angeles a suicide bomber in Telaviv, on a plane home over Ukrain, A childrens summer camp in Norway ......................................

We ought to learn some, from our constant involvements, in other countrys domestic problems and not keep on creating monsturous despots over and over.

And not axcept double standards, :(

Man, how many times, are we to alow , our "heros" & leaders, to lie and cheat, and get away with it.

We have crossed the line, so many times (but the cause was good so :confused: it's justyfied :confused: or  OK)

We (the west) can not deploy forces, all over the planet, we are not the judge, and all good guys, in particular when we give legal imunity, on a constant basis to our own, whilst hanging our enemy, for comiting warcrimes & crimes on humanity,

Some of the crimes, are comitid on our watch, with our consent when "the elephant" was still our alied. 

I really think, we have to retink, our way of dealing with each other, and not let religous, or political radicals, rule domestic or abroad.

 

Hehe sorry for the rant it was not directed to you Ravnis or anybody else :) , just me being fedup with all the manmade mess around the globe, what a drain/waste of peoples lifes, and money.

 

Cheers

Edited by ande (see edit history)
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Sorry I never really replied to this. You can speak more plainly than this can't you? But this is history. We need to discuss and react to the clear and PRESENT threat. ISIL is just one of many Islamic groups that have been in existence in one form or another since the beginning of the religion. This group is not something new to the modern era. That is what makes it so dangerous.

History ? The link adressed directly " the Present threat " and what Obama does or don't do, the author put's it in a context, did you bother to read it ? or did I some how misunderstand what you adressed.?

Are you saying it's ISIS that is the curant threat and not ISIL ?

This is to old/history ?

Don’t BS the American People About Iraq, Syria, and ISIL

August 20, 2014 · in Commentary
 
I strugle to follow you August 20. of this year is to old ?
or is it my sidenote on the matter that is to old/history, we are talking about the same conflict yeah ?
 
cheers

 

quote from here:

http://www.ibtimes.com/it-isis-or-isil-jihadist-group-expanding-iraq-has-two-names-one-goal-1601346

 

Is it ISIS or ISIL? Both are correct. ISIS and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) are the same, the group which emerged during the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003 and was once led by the feared Abu Musab al-Zaraqwi, killed by the Americans in 2006.

The group changed its name in 2012 from the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI) to the Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria (ISIS), from the Arabic term for Levant, al-Sham. That is sometimes translated as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL). It wanted to change its name to include a broader swath of land, as its goal was to create an Islamic state based on Sharia, or Islamic law.

The group, now led by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, is advancing toward that goal as it has now occupied parts of both Syria and Iraq, and continues its campaign south to Baghdad.

Edited by ande (see edit history)

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History ? The link adressed directly " the Present threat " and what Obama does or don't do, the author put's it in a context, did you bother to read it ? or did I some how misunderstand what you adressed.?

Are you saying it's ISIS that is the curant threat and not ISIL ?

This is to old/history ?

Don’t BS the American People About Iraq, Syria, and ISIL

August 20, 2014 · in Commentary
 
I strugle to follow you August 20. of this year is to old ?
or is it my sidenote on the matter that is to old/history, we are talking about the same conflict yeah ?
 
cheers

 

quote from here:

http://www.ibtimes.com/it-isis-or-isil-jihadist-group-expanding-iraq-has-two-names-one-goal-1601346

 

Is it ISIS or ISIL? Both are correct. ISIS and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) are the same, the group which emerged during the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003 and was once led by the feared Abu Musab al-Zaraqwi, killed by the Americans in 2006.

The group changed its name in 2012 from the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI) to the Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria (ISIS), from the Arabic term for Levant, al-Sham. That is sometimes translated as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL). It wanted to change its name to include a broader swath of land, as its goal was to create an Islamic state based on Sharia, or Islamic law.

The group, now led by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, is advancing toward that goal as it has now occupied parts of both Syria and Iraq, and continues its campaign south to Baghdad.

The link is wrong.  Radical Islam, as it is called out of political correctness, has always been a part of Islam. The founder of the Islamic movement was himself a conquerer. Since its inception in the 7th century, Islam has murdered, raped, and decimated those that are not Muslims. Even Muslim against Muslim, depending on their beliefs, Sunni or Shiite.  The crusades were all about helping Christians being murdered by Muslims.  

It is not something the West did to them, it is how they think based on the teachings of the Koran. It is who they are, and to try to paint them as some wronged people is just ignoring what they themselves say repeatedly. Now if it were not for the continuous violent  history of Islam, the way they treat non-Muslims, the fact that there are so many radical Islamic groups across the Islamic World and the behavior of many Muslims in the Western states to which they immigrated, I would say this is a fluke, an anomaly.  

The elephant in the room is Radical Islam, and the World better wake up to that fact before it is too late!

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  The elephant in the room is Radical Islam, and the World better wake up to that fact before it is too late!

 

The elephant in the room... is religious fundamentalist nutcases... full stop... regardless of religion... and that DOES include so called "Christians" as well....

Edited by RupertofOZ (see edit history)

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The crusades were all about helping Christians being murdered by Muslims. 

 

Oh, really... care to provide links to support that view of history :D

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The elephant in the room... is religious fundamentalist nutcases... full stop... regardless of religion... and that DOES include so called "Christians" as well....

Maybe you can enlighten me, which Christian group is threatening the World and attacking other nations today? Where are Christians cutting off hands and legs and heads? Where are Christians stoning women?  Christianity had it issues to be sure, and on occasion small groups rise up and commit atrocities, but never on this scale or for this long in history. It is dealt with and becomes a foot note in history. And these incidents are usually more political than anything else. And Christianity has matured and grown, unlike the religion of Islam.  I don't see Christianity or any of the other major religions as a threat to my way of life and freedoms. I cannot say the same for Islam, and any honest person with a full grasp of the facts would agree, IMHO.  How long do we turn our head away as these atrocities continue, how long do we ignore the warnings coming from Islamic terrorists themselves that their one goal is to Islamify the World or die trying before we realize the danger? 

I know you are not going to admit or agree with the danger of Islam. So consider this my last post as I am sure you are set.  I will just sit back and read the news each day as I always do now that I am retired and just shake my head at what they do, and we did to answer it.  I will watch the politicians smooth talk it away. I will watch the media air each instance of Palestinians being killed by Jews who are defending themselves as if they are not allowed to attack those that attack them daily. And the World turns, the people die in horrible ways in the Islamic World, and we send drones and jets to just pee them off more rather than answer this infestation once and for all. 

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Oh, really... care to provide links to support that view of history :D

You seem capable, I am sure you can Google it.

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And the World turns, the people die in horrible ways in the Islamic World, and we send drones and jets to just pee them off more rather than answer this infestation once and for all. 

 

Yep... we've come a long way in our enlightenment.... especially with regards to this "infestation"....

 

And we no longer "stone" people... (the preferred Jewish punishment by the way.... it was the Romans that preferred cruxification)

 

Instead... we throw our stones from 30000ft.... or via a games console....

 

And provide humane treatment of those who we defend in the name of "god & country"... and "democracy"

 

Praise the lord... and pass the ammunition brother...

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post-3396-0-80197000-1409718924_thumb.jp

post-3396-0-75198500-1409718926_thumb.jp

post-3396-0-81407800-1409718928_thumb.jp

Edited by RupertofOZ (see edit history)
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By the way... so we're clear.... I am not in any way condoning  the acts of barberism being conducted by ISIL...

 

Or any of the nutcases that distort the teachings of the various religions... and practice atrocities, oppression... or genocide...

 

They are distorted, warped.. mentally challenged morons... who smear their greed and clamour for power and influence... with the pretence of religion...what ever "religion" they may pretend to represent...

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I had a scathing response in my head to write, but was attacked by sudden tranquility...

 

Blind following of despots without critical thinking by the followers seems to be a common thread among all of these atrocities.  I don't see any nation or extreme group can claim their hands are clean.

 

I remember a candidate, don't recall which it was for sure, but remember his response to a question: How do we get the middle east to quit hating us.  His response was "well, for one thing, we could quit bombing them."

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I had a scathing response in my head to write, but was attacked by sudden tranquility...

 

Bloody Buddhists... check under your bed...

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By the way... so we're clear.... I am not in any way condoning  the acts of barberism being conducted by ISIL...

 

Or any of the nutcases that distort the teachings of the various religions... and practice atrocities, oppression... or genocide...

 

They are distorted, warped.. mentally challenged morons... who smear their greed and clamour for power and influence... with the pretence of religion...what ever "religion" they may pretend to represent...

Could have fooled me. All you talk about is US aggression and atrocities while never mentioning the long bloody history of Islam. I bet you never even cared enough to educate yourself on the history of Islam or read the Koran.  I bet you think Bush planned 9/11 too.  Shame really. 

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