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Does no one use Koi in there process?..Honestly that was my first choice.

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That is a good point about aquaponics vs hydroponics buying habits, but educating the consumer is what is needed,  Originally, I was under the impression and thought I did the right homework that a low density ap set up was cheaper to run than an organic hydro set up (I got caught up with the all the hoopla).  I since have come to learn otherwise.  I do use the ap as a marketing strategy but that does not mean I cannot supplement with organic hydro nutrients and continue with aquaponic labeling.  What ap means is sustainability, "organic" fertilizers and pest control all of which can be achieved with organic hydro.  The great thing about ap is the double use of the water for two crops, fish and veges.  With the right design you can control both independently and maximize conditions and growth for both systems.  Look at what Paul and Rup have been saying with regard to this on other pages.  Even the backyard system can achieve these designs.  Hope that helps.

 

Clint

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My first post, here goes,

 

as mentioned Koi are prolific breeders, and to produce attractive and well-marked fish for sale requires heavy sorting and culling. In Japan and wherever show Koi are grown there are a number of selections, first year some culls might go to a food grow out and many or  most wind up on the bank.  This is universally done, Japan, US and anywhere else Koi are grown. A half million fry/fingerlings are a lot to sort. With Kohaku its some easier as just cull any that don't show some orange. All olive-greens go on the ground, or food fish grow-out. That's what went on in Japan for hundreds of years.

 

In cold climates Koi winter well as long as the surface doesn't freeze over, some deeper water helps. As pointed out, genetically they are carp, they winter in Canada , Alaska, Europe and Siberia. Aeration is a major plus. There are several Koi magazines, Koi Bito is one, google them. There are a couple Koi forums, most folks there cringe when aquaponics is mentioned for growing Koi, its thought of as something only for food fish, don't argue it, that's guaranteed a losing effort, been there, done it. Myself, keeping a small number of matched breeders in an aquaponics set up is fun.  You do need a lot of grow-out space, well aerated, and cull heavily. Its fun, and you can wind up with some nice koi to grow out, sell or trade.  Some day I'd love to visit Japan and visit some of the farms, and maybe bring back  4-5 youngsters to grow out and breed.

 

Jake

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Thanks for the information and good first post. I am interested in learning more about koi and what makes one valuable over others. I dont like the idea of throwing them up onto the bank but somehow feel it more humane to feed them to my other fish like HSB or LMB but i am not sure it is. For the bigger reject ish i think i could learn or figure out how to prepare them adequately for consumption. 

 

I also wonder if  if i could just buy a few 4-6" japan fingerlings that seem to go for about $50, would i just be able to grow those  a few years and sell them for profit? I am not looking to make a million dollars here.. My thought is if i could find $500-$1000 a year it could balance out a lot of my aquaponics costs like electricity and fish food

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Well, first, in a 'typical' spawning of Koi you are looking at 200,000 to a half million fry. The first selection, at roughly a month or better of age is still far more fry then most can handle, especially if there are multiple spawnings going on. In the case of present day breeders, even small ones there are 20-50 pairs.  For us small folks with a pair or two we have other options. If you have a pond or two with some big mouth bass, or  a pet shop with some big Oscars etc its easy to find a good use of the 'greenies'. That's around about a month of age. 

 

Then the selection process gets more intensive at  each growing stage. And the value of the youngsters goes up on the better ones. I doubt you would find many $50 fish in Japan from the superior breeders, plus by the time they were shipped to the US they are going to be higher. There are some very good breeders here in the US, on both coasts. I suggest going to the online Koi forums and getting acquainted with breeders here  while learning more about Koi in general and the varieties you prefer. If you want to breed that is a must. Only keep as many varieties as you are interested in breeding. Crossing varieties will result in a much larger percentage of culls .

 

Google American Koi Breeders, and online Koi Forums, you'll get a ton of information. Good luck, its a study with a great number of enjoyable days ahead. I find all of it fascinating. BTW, Amazon has a lot of good books, never too many :D

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Koi (not show varieties, which are a whole other animal, so to speak), have economic value in a. selling to hobbyists and b. using as pet food. I can cook them up and feed them to my dogs and cats and reduce my food bill.  Ironically, like other carp, they are edible for humans, too, if you don't mind dealing with the bones. And AP provides a healthy environment for raising them. Full disclosure: I have never eaten Koi, but I have eaten other carp.  The culls become a great adjunct to any compost pile or garden. Bury a fish head (or whole fish) with your sweet corn and watch the production explode. 

 

I also do enjoy the visual appeal of koi in a hobby system. I've always been enamored with koi and goldfish ponds.

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Yes, they have lots of uses even if they don't make the grade. Koi are Carp so whatever applies  to Carp is true of Koi, with a caveat that many strains of Carp weigh more then show quality Koi. I think that was some selection over a long time to have an easier to  handle breeder fish.

 

For breeders with reasonable access to Chinese and Korean markets there is a market for live and iced Koi, or off colors. Lots of good uses for the culls.

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There's a dude in my area that imports and sells japanese koi. Many of the imports are still very small, 4-6" and are priced in the $50 ballpark. His bigger fish are several hundred a piece. Maybe he just has good prices or maybe his koi arent the quality you are talking about. But that was where i pulled out my numbers, it was complete fantasy land.

 

 

 

http://saizenkoi.com/koi%20for%20sale.html

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I am curious and will check him out. There is another farm, I think in NJ, that has an open house every fall and they sell fish after the summers grow out. They bring them to a greenhouse for sorting and put in clean water, their prices also  go up high, I have wanted to go for several years as they have award winning kohaku.

 

I am sure you can buy younger fish for $50 and up. For the numbers I want I would prefer 2 yr or 3yr old fish, for more money,  in the $  2-300 range.  Breeders bought in the fall should spawn in the spring.  I want to get updated on where the US breeders are. There was one in central upstate NY. It'd be fun to do a breeding each spring and raise them out, sell some to the pond fish dealers here in MI.

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Here is  a link to a post on Koi Bito, which I really enjoy, its about a guy going to  Tim Purdins farm at the fall sorting and buying a number to sell to others on the list at the Fla Koi show.

 

Tims farm is the one I was trying to think of. I really would like about 4-5 of his Kohaku.

 

 

http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-forum/15837-tims-purdin-kohaku-go.html

 

This btw is one site that you will  catch thrown rocks for suggesting aquaponics.  Enjoy it, but forget how great aquaponics is there.They only want to talk Bakki Filters, which are great, I am looking at a micro one on my indoor AP system. 

 

Jake

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But hat is exactly what i was asking. Could there be a market for buying the fingerlings and growing them for 2-3 years and then selling bigger fish to impatient people with more money than time or commercial ponds/aquariums? Or would they only buy from a reputable seller despite the gene line.

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One way to find out, grow out a couple imported boxes of fingerlings and try them. I don't think you would have to grow them 3 years, 1-2 years should get them nicely saleable. Check out the for sale stock on Koi Bito. 

 

Myself I am going to have an in home system, with maybe five koi to start and reduce it to 3-4 once they have some mass. Then, I will see if they will breed and then grow the fry out, for a fun project.  My profit, is getting clean and at hand good salad eatings. Free of Mexican pesticides.  Free of all pesticides. The real fun other then eating is growing out colorful big fish in home.

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Its all about doing what you like to do.

 

You can describe any activity as a Ponzi scheme.  Any.

 

Try blue gills. They will do great in Texas. As will Tilapia.

 

I'm out of this thread.

 

Jake

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 I dont understand why you would need to announce leaving the thread. You can choose to respond or not respond to any post  or thread at any time. I am sorry if you felt like i was being contentious. I was not directing my comment at you or any person who enjoys the hobby, Like i said before,  i am interested in learning more  but right now that is just my ignorant understanding of the seemingly high value of something  that is  not a commodity and as i see it has no tangible value. I figure it is like art which i also know nothing about. 

 

I dont think all activities could be described as a ponzi . That is just being argumentative where no argument is being had. I prefaced it by saying i dont know what i am talking about. It's just a perception. 

 

 

I raise bluegill, LMB, channel catfish, crappie, red ear sunfish, hybrid striped bass, goldfish and tilapia in my indoor and outdoor  aquaponic system(s). I disagree that tilapia are a good choice in my area. 

 

In conclusion, please grow a thicker skin, realize that sometimes the joke or sarcasm can be misunderstood in text and dont always assume it's a personal attack.   I am starting to wonder if the people on the koi bito forum are really as militant and hostile against aquaponics as you let on. Are you over there now  telling them how hostile aquaponics people are  to keeping koi?

Edited by bcotton (see edit history)

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Hi b

 Could there be a market for buying the fingerlings and growing them for 2-3 years and then selling bigger fish to impatient people with more money than time or commercial ponds/aquariums? Or would they only buy from a reputable seller despite the gene line.

That market exsists here (Norway).

 

This time of the year, the Koi dealers go to Japan, some arange tours for people to come along, to pick their own import koi

 

When on tour the dealers also put koi pics. on internet and offer specials

 

Like buy a hole box of a particular breed to reduced prices, the dealer arange all the paperwork you can pick up at spesific airport and do the quarentin, or let the dealer do that as well for a fixed price.....

 

The koi dealers get lower prices, the more they buy, and the paperwork, transport etc. is more or less the same.

 

Most I see that do this co-import, keep the Koi for 1 year, a wery promising might be kept for another year or two, and when sold they are advertised with the Japanese breeder/gene origin & the pro koi dealers name, to achive the high prices.

 

I think you have to be active on koi forums & clubs, to make good money and lower the risk.

 

cheers

 

edit: RyanC (commercial ap) use koi as one specie http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12589&p=398763&hilit=chatterson+koi#p398763

Edited by ande (see edit history)

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Hi,

 

Ive moved my 2 pair into another tank in the system to make room for 500 Jade Perch fingerlings.

 

They will be ready to spawn in about 4 weeks, then I will be pressed for space. When they are at size, I will wholesale 5-6cm Koi to the aquarium industry.... after I have hand selected & graded out the top 2-5% for grow on, just like Ande suggests.

 

 

Cheers

Joe

Edited by Toga (see edit history)

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Gary that's the philosophy that allowed the Koi to develop to their present levels. One with which I heartily agree. Koi, being carp are going to breed when age and weather allow, and the offspring will be mixed, common 'greenies' and colored ones.  At one month of age is about the earliest a selection can be made, in small pools etc its much easier to sort out the colored from the culls, and I hate waste so will find a good place for the culls.  In the high priced stock breeders the first culls do land on the ground.  It takes developing a use/market for them, the big breeders have other work for their crews with much more valuable fish.  I follow foundings father axiom, "waste not want not".  Each to his own, especially with Koi.

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