Jump to content
Cecil

My sincere condolences...

Recommended Posts

Hi S I'm a bit confused you even quoted my answer do you read my post ?

 

Posted Today, 08:09 PM

ande, on 30 Aug 2014 - 7:51 PM, said:snapback.png

 

 

cheers

Sorry, indeed you did answer my question. So my point is do you think a piece of paper makes the difference to coming to someone's aid?  The only reason we do not have a treaty with Ukraine is because Russia would invade immediately if the Ukraine made that gesture. They are affraid of Russia.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So answer is, lets us all take uniforms and guns ,and tanks, planes and bombs and kill people, destroy houses, spill blood everywhere, nuke them if needed.

This is the only thing Russia will understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi again S

 

Sorry, indeed you did answer my question. So my point is do you think a piece of paper makes the difference to coming to someone's aid? 

 

No I don't think a piece of paper makes any difference nor religous, cultural or political view, I think coming to someones aid, when needed, is a nobel and important gesture. 

I just don't see, arming, and/or military suport to one side, in a domestic conflict, as aid. I think thats when the conflict often gets dirty.

Thats the game Russia have been playing in Ukraine IMO

 

The only reason we do not have a treaty with Ukraine is because Russia would invade immediately if the Ukraine made that gesture. They are affraid of Russia.  

 

It's multiple reasons why Ukraine is not a member of NATO and/or EU, not even a assosiated member (prospect),

Mainly because, the Ukraine population is diverse, multiethnic  and splitt amongst themselfe on those questions, and large groups would rather strenghten the historical bonds in direction of Russia and not towards the west.

Also some NATO & EU members would not axcept Ukraine untill a lot of internal issues where setled in a democratic way, like with other EU NATO wannabe nations, that are aplying for membership.

 

cheers

 

It is not a simple Q black/white, IMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So answer is, lets us all take uniforms and guns ,and tanks, planes and bombs and kill people, destroy houses, spill blood everywhere, nuke them if needed.

This is the only thing Russia will understand.

 

Why didn't I think of that :sword:

 

To suport the peace & building of a good lasting democracy in the aftermath.

Send in Paul Bremer,Dick Cheney, & Donald Rumsfeld :bow:

 

cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why didn't I think of that :sword:

 

To suport the peace & building of a good lasting democracy in the aftermath.

Send in Paul Bremer,Dick Cheney, & Donald Rumsfeld :bow:

 

cheers

 

LOL. Thanks ande - I needed a good laugh after reading on this heavy topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why didn't I think of that :sword:

 

To suport the peace & building of a good lasting democracy in the aftermath.

Send in Paul Bremer,Dick Cheney, & Donald Rumsfeld :bow:

 

cheers

Those people you quoted understand the mind of tyranny much better than you do.  You do not get results with the the likes of Putin or Radical Islam with "peaceful gestures". History is clear on that point. They think nothing about using guns to get what they want and if they are allowed to do so with no real consequence they will continue, that is just the way it is my friend. 

We can talk them to death as they continue the slaughter and blame past US figures who made an effort, as you are doing, or we can make them pay a dear price for their slaughter. 

Funny how you continue to bring up the potential lost lives at the hands of America and her allies should we go to Ukraine's aid but never really mention the innocent lives being lost right now, at Russian hands.  I guess we just let the butcher of Russia do what he likes and talk about how bad it is while he continues to do what he wants. 

 

cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think it's as easy as sending the troops in...

 

Do you think the U.S. are capable of taking Russia on in The Ukraine?....

 

Here's a sidewinder for you...If The U.S. decided to send in troops ....Would China send in troops to help Russia?...

 

I just asked those Questions to get a slightly different tact on it but, It could be a real threat to world peace if the U.S. decided to go to war with Russia...

 

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think it's as easy as sending the troops in...

 

Do you think the U.S. are capable of taking Russia on in The Ukraine?....

 

Here's a sidewinder for you...If The U.S. decided to send in troops ....Would China send in troops to help Russia?...

 

I just asked those Questions to get a slightly different tact on it but, It could be a real threat to world peace if the U.S. decided to go to war with Russia...

 

Cheers.

Easy? Who said anything about easy. China has too much invested in the US to help Russia.  And why would they, not as if Russia is a communist state anymore, for that matter neither is China.  

I suspect Russia would pull out and sue for peace if a large US force was next door. But that is not what I had in mind. Arming Ukraine and sending "advisors" and better more modern equipment was more my thought track.  It is one thing to sit somewhere with air and artillery and no one shooting back. But quite another with US sophisticated location pinpointing any artillery and tanks and taking them out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

Anyone who believes that Cheney and Rumsfield are not every bit as ruthless as Putin has a slim grip on the facts......and history.    Ask anyone belonging to the families of the thousand of Iraqis that perished in the weeks and months following Dubya's "mission accomplished" skit.

 

Only the establishment of a properly constituted, appropriately resourced international peacekeeper force stands a chance of resolving the issues in Iraq, Afghanistan and the middle east.  That force should not include anyone who has thus far dabbled and stuffed it up (and that includes the US, Britain and Australia).

 

Only nation-building can hope to resolve the deep-seated issues that have torn those places apart.   What we've learned so far, is that you can seemingly annihilate the locals but, so long as one of them remains to go outside and pick up some of the ordinance that the "liberators" have left lying around......to build an IED....the game's still on.

 

We have only to look to the Palestinians to see that overwhelming military might isn't going to stop the fight.  When you're dispossessed to the extent that the Palestinians are, the diminishing price of one's own life opens up all sorts of resistance options.

 

Gary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HI Strider,

 

Your suggestion may work...Who knows...The U.S. also supplied Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein at some stage, didn't they? If they do it this time it'll want to not come around and bite it on it's touche later....

 

President Putin seems to be successful ATM using brute force...Russia was successful with Czechoslovakia  as well wasn't it?...Not so long ago a couple maybe a few years ago Russia were fighting in a surrounding country and beat them into submission as well...Can't remember off the top of my head where it was....So yeah brute force can work...I'm not sure U.S brute force will work here.

 

To lighten things up a bit here.

 

I don't know about Russia but I have recently been to China and spoken to people there and they are still very much communist....Governmental order and order of the people is very important to them...Sure they have opened up and become more Western in it's larger cities...I remember seeing a documentary of a reporter on his bike in Tiananmen Square in the mid 60's...A complete opposite to what it was when I was there last year...

 

Below are a couple of pics

 

The fist one is a pic of the current Chairman, looking from just on the edge of Tiananmen square looking toward the forbidden city, next is just inside The forbidden city and the third is a carving on the side of the mountain looking from The great wall, of Chairman Mao which today they consider a hero, according to the Chinese I spoke to. and finally to show you how Westernised they have become a picture of probably one of the most Western cities in China, Shanghai.

post-559-0-18872200-1409568961_thumb.jpg

post-559-0-10598900-1409569006_thumb.jpg

post-559-0-25662200-1409569127_thumb.jpg

post-559-0-96158500-1409569516_thumb.jpg

Edited by bigdaddy (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think it's as easy as sending the troops in...

Do you think the U.S. are capable of taking Russia on in The Ukraine?....

Here's a sidewinder for you...If The U.S. decided to send in troops ....Would China send in troops to help Russia?...

I just asked those Questions to get a slightly different tact on it but, It could be a real threat to world peace if the U.S. decided to go to war with Russia...

Cheers.

Easy? Who said it wouldl be easy? China has nothing in common with Russia which is no longer a communist state. In fact China is no longer a communist state either, more of a hybrid. China has a lot invested in the US and would be foolish to jeapardize that.

I am not suggesting sending in the Marines. I am suggesting that after Russia is completely cut off economically from the World economics, if they persist, we send in "advisors" and sophisticated weapons and intellegence services to counter Russian forces on the border.

So far, the actions of the World have been lack luster at best. I guess apathy is the norm unless it is your country being invaded.

Sorry for answering this twice, i thought the first one was lost.

Edited by Strider (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HI Strider,

 

Your suggestion may work...Who knows...The U.S. also supplied Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein at some stage, didn't they? If they do it this time it'll want to not come around and bite it on it's touche later....

 

President Putin seems to be successful ATM using brute force...Russia was successful with Czechoslovakia  as well wasn't it?...Not so long ago a couple maybe a few years ago Russia were fighting in a surrounding country and beat them into submission as well...Can't remember off the top of my head where it was....So yeah brute force can work...I'm not sure U.S brute force will work here.

 

To lighten things up a bit here.

 

I don't know about Russia but I have recently been to China and spoken to people there and they are still very much communist....Governmental order and order of the people is very important to them...Sure they have opened up and become more Western in it's larger cities...I remember seeing a documentary of a reporter on his bike in Tiananmen Square in the mid 60's...A complete opposite to what it was when I was there last year...

 

Below are a couple of pics

 

The fist one is a pic of the current Chairman, looking from just on the edge of Tiananmen square looking toward the forbidden city, next is just inside The forbidden city and the third is a carving on the side of the mountain looking from The great wall, of Chairman Mao which today they consider a hero, according to the Chinese I spoke to. and finally to show you how Westernised they have become a picture of probably one of the most Western cities in China, Shanghai.

I don't know if brute force would work, i only know that what we are doing is not. Putin respects strength.

Yes, China has moved into capitalism largely because communism was not working. People don't work well for others at the point of a gun but will move mountains if they own their own business and can keep some what they earn. It was the incentive the Chinese needed to move forward. Opening their nation to foreign business in partnership with the Chinese was brilliant if not harmful to many US companies who find they can not compete with the cheap labor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

Anyone who believes that Cheney and Rumsfield are not every bit as ruthless as Putin has a slim grip on the facts......and history.    Ask anyone belonging to the families of the thousand of Iraqis that perished in the weeks and months following Dubya's "mission accomplished" skit.

 

Only the establishment of a properly constituted, appropriately resourced international peacekeeper force stands a chance of resolving the issues in Iraq, Afghanistan and the middle east.  That force should not include anyone who has thus far dabbled and stuffed it up (and that includes the US, Britain and Australia).

 

Only nation-building can hope to resolve the deep-seated issues that have torn those places apart.   What we've learned so far, is that you can seemingly annihilate the locals but, so long as one of them remains to go outside and pick up some of the ordinance that the "liberators" have left lying around......to build an IED....the game's still on.

 

We have only to look to the Palestinians to see that overwhelming military might isn't going to stop the fight.  When you're dispossessed to the extent that the Palestinians are, the diminishing price of one's own life opens up all sorts of resistance options.

 

Gary

Difference is that Cheney and Rumsfield don't go around blowing up buildings with 3000 people in them, attacking embassies, blowing up Naval Vessels, and cutting people's heads off.  And I don't know about you, but when America commits to war, I want the chicken hawks leading, not the chickens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ruble slips to all time low. And it will only get worse as new sanctions take effect this week. Not as sexy as sending in troops but it sure beats the approach of our last president that we are still cleaning up after.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/01/investing/russia-ruble-currency/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Difference is that Cheney and Rumsfield don't go around blowing up buildings with 3000 people in them, attacking embassies, blowing up Naval Vessels, and cutting people's heads off. And I don't know about you, but when America commits to war, I want the chicken hawks leading, not the chickens.

Bush and Cheney did every bit of that and more except you thought if was O.K. since they were allegedly on our side. And I'll bet you don't believe we tortured either. We blew people up instead of cutting their heads off. It's the same result-- dead. I've seen bombs blow heads off, burn people alive, and of course rip off appendages.

Chicken Hawks leading? Are you kidding me? I'd prefer a president that carries a big stick and only uses it when necessary and is advised by military people with military experience. A chicken hawk is the worst kind of leader as deep down he's a coward and has no problem sending someone else off to war. Most dictators are cowards.

I remember the Army chaplain checking the mailboxes to notify a spouse her husband was killed in Vietnam when we lived in Fayetteville, NC (Ft. Bragg) . More than once we peered out the window hoping he wouldn't stop at our door. Dick Cheney's family didn't have to worry about it with 5 deferrments. He let someone else come back in a body bag. Now he's a gung ho warrior just like Ted Nugent that crapped his pants and kept them on for a week before going to the draft board to avoid the draft.

Don't even get me started on Bush that joined the NG to avoid combat and walked away from his service.

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bush and Cheney did every bit of that and more except you thought if was O.K. since they were allegedly on our side. And I'll bet you don't believe we tortured either. We blew people up instead of cutting their heads off. It's the same result-- dead. I've seen bombs blow heads off, burn people alive, and of course rip off appendages.

Chicken Hawks leading? Are you kidding me? I'd prefer a president that carries a big stick and only uses it when necessary and is advised by military people with military experience. A chicken hawk is the worst kind of leader as deep down he's a coward and has no problem sending someone else off to war. Most dictators are cowards.

I remember the Army chaplain checking the mailboxes to notify a spouse her husband was killed in Vietnam when we lived in Fayetteville, NC (Ft. Bragg) . More than once we peered out the window hoping he wouldn't stop at our door. Dick Cheney's family didn't have to worry about it with 5 deferrments. He let someone else come back in a body bag. Now he's a gung ho warrior just like Ted Nugent that crapped his pants and kept them on for a week before going to the draft board to avoid the draft.

Don't even get me started on Bush that joined the NG to avoid combat and walked away from his service.

Sounds a lot like the definition of war.,  You are an apologist.  You are part of the far left that believes there is never a good reason to go to war. You would rather another 3000 American, British or Australians lost their lives and then you would probably make excuses that we were somehow at fault with our imperialistic ways... 

You seem to always go back to VietNam, as if that has anything to do with the present threat we face.... You are stuck in the past on a war that a democrat president started. 

Bush again? Really? Bush has not been president for over 6 years now.  Again, stuck in the past...

War has been thrust upon us whether you like it or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ruble slips to all time low. And it will only get worse as new sanctions take effect this week. Not as sexy as sending in troops but it sure beats the approach of our last president that we are still cleaning up after.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/01/investing/russia-ruble-currency/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

And just how do you know it beats the approach? Has Russia pulled out their forces? Has Russia given back Crimea or Easter Ukraine?  And again you cannot know what would have happen had we not gone into Iraq, things could have been much worse. But you keep hypothesizing about it as if you have some glass ball that knows all. 

Taking out a bad guy like Sadaam, who had millions of peoples blood on his hands and invaded two neighbors is not a bad thing, unless you're an apologist for America. 

But I will say again, I am all for tighter more meaningful sanctions, until those sanctions prove ineffectual.  Sanctions should have been enacted immediately after the first signs of Russian involvement. You show you mean business by making a statement about a red line and then acting when the red line is crossed, not by doing nothing when the red line is crossed. Better to say nothing in that case. We see now that America has lost credibility and Russia's Putin knows it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds a lot like the definition of war.,  You are an apologist.  You are part of the far left that believes there is never a good reason to go to war. You would rather another 3000 American, British or Australians lost their lives and then you would probably make excuses that we were somehow at fault with our imperialistic ways... 

You seem to always go back to VietNam, as if that has anything to do with the present threat we face.... You are stuck in the past on a war that a democrat president started. 

Bush again? Really? Bush has not been president for over 6 years now.  Again, stuck in the past...

War has been thrust upon us whether you like it or not.

The rule is to reply about the post, not the person who wrote.

U can write what u want but please don't be personal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Taking out a bad guy like Sadaam, who had millions of peoples blood on his hands and invaded two neighbors is not a bad thing, unless you're an apologist for America. 

 

The US either overtly, covertly.. or even tacitly.... supported Saddam in both those invasions... :D

 

And a large amount of the armaments... including biological agents... were supplied by the US... or other "western" nations ... :D

 

And you couldn't really suggest that the US hasn't invaded.. or supported some pretty dire and horrendous blood baths in "neighbours"... :D

Edited by RupertofOZ (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds a lot like the definition of war., You are an apologist. You are part of the far left that believes there is never a good reason to go to war. You would rather another 3000 American, British or Australians lost their lives and then you would probably make excuses that we were somehow at fault with our imperialistic ways...

You seem to always go back to VietNam, as if that has anything to do with the present threat we face.... You are stuck in the past on a war that a democrat president started.

Bush again? Really? Bush has not been president for over 6 years now. Again, stuck in the past...

War has been thrust upon us whether you like it or not.

Apologist? Not hardly. Someone that believes war should only be a last resort-- damn right. And if you think I'm part of the far left you are waaaay off. If I was, I wouldn't vote for the best candidate for the job, when I go to the polls instead of just one party. In fact I've voted republican in the last two primaries so I could vote for a republican. The last one I believe was for Dick Lugar over that idiot Murdock that said rape was God's will.

Why do I keep bringing up past history? Do I really have to tell you? Never heard the quote about learning from history?

As far as bringing up Bush and Cheney they are relevant. They can't shirk responsibility just because they are no longer in office. They are the ones that got us into this Iraq mess in the first place along with the worthless congress critters BOTH republicans AND democrats that didn't question the invasion and voted for it. That included Hillary Clinton that is someone I'd never vote for. Surprised at that?

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

This is your friendly moderator talking here......and I was wondering if perhaps you two fine gentlemen had had enough of this subject.

 

If so, I thought (having allowed everyone the opportunity to voice their feelings about the matter) that I might close the thread.....to allow your respective energies to be directed back to the main game.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Gary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gary,

I don't have a problem with you closing the thread although I don't believe it's as acrimonious as it sounds. But then again I participate in two political forums for entertainment and this is mild compared to that. So perhaps I've become desensitized.

Strider I hold no ill will against you whatsoever. If you'd like to take it ouside we could continue on Political Hotwire or Debate Politics Forum.

Cheers!

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Cecil,

 

No suggestion that things were getting out of hand......but rather that we'd covered off the main points several times.....and that I'd rather see your respective fine minds back in the main game.....if you both had nothing more to contribute to the important matter of misbehaving world superpowers.

 

Gary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Cecil,

 

No suggestion that things were getting out of hand......but rather that we'd covered off the main points several times.....and that I'd rather see your respective fine minds back in the main game.....if you both had nothing more to contribute to the important matter of misbehaving world superpowers.

 

Gary

 

 

Fine with me. Although I can assure you this could go on and on. LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gary,

I don't have a problem with you closing the thread although I don't believe it's as acrimonious as it sounds. But then again I participate in two political forums for entertainment and this is mild compared to that. So perhaps I've become desensitized.

Strider I hold no ill will against you whatsoever. If you'd like to take it ouside we could continue on Political Hotwire or Debate Politics Forum. I'm EnigmaO01 on both. :-)

Cheers!

Close it, don't close it, I do not care really.  I have pretty much made my feelings know on this topic. I never hold grudges Cecil, but don't let me catch you in public...Just Kidding....lol

Edited by Strider (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...