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Cecil

My sincere condolences...

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to our members that have lost their fellow countrymen, women and children to the senseless shootdown of the civilian airliner. I hope those responsible will be brought to justice, especially the psychopath pseudo soldiers that are reveling in it on videos.

What king of a mindset brags about shooting down a defenseless civilian airliner and mocks a a doll he found in the wreckage?

 

RTvqI0c_zps54be1fb0.jpg

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)

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What king of a mindset brags about shooting down a defenseless civilian airliner and mocks a a doll he found in the wreckage?

 

 

Ummmmm ........ douchebag comes to mind, along with plenty of other non printable descriptions.

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What king of a mindset brags about shooting down a defenseless civilian airliner and mocks a a doll he found in the wreckage?

 

It's called fighting a war......and, regrettably, MH17 got caught up in it.  

 

Soldiers of every nation get into similar behaviour at some point or the other.  Contrary to what we're told war isn't conducted according to any real rules.  Chivalry (in the middle ages) right through to the Geneva Convention were attempts to put boundaries around the conduct of war but, when it's all said and done, war is about killing people (particularly civilians) in pursuit of national(istic) "interests."

 

Rules of engagement is a political notion......not a military one......and they'll go out the window when the pressure comes on.  They exist so that when someone does something naughty (and gets caught), the blame can be sheeted home to the bottom end of the totem pole.

 

The real evil in war lies behind well behind those soldiers and their behaviour......look to the politicians, industrialists and generals (what C. Wright Mills described as the "power elite") for the real cause of war......and all that flows from it.  The power elite exists in any country large enough to go to war with another country.   They'll do it for as long as it suits (and enriches) them and then they'll stop.   It's not personal for them.....it's business.

 

The soldiers in the photo are just pawns in the game......and the people on MH17 are victims of victims.

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It's called fighting a war......and, regrettably, MH17 got caught up in it.  

 

Soldiers of every nation get into similar behaviour at some point or the other.  Contrary to what we're told war isn't conducted according to any real rules.  Chivalry (in the middle ages) right through to the Geneva Convention were attempts to put boundaries around the conduct of war but, when it's all said and done, war is about killing people (particularly civilians) in pursuit of national(istic) "interests."

 

Rules of engagement is a political notion......not a military one......and they'll go out the window when the pressure comes on.  They exist so that when someone does something naughty (and gets caught), the blame can be sheeted home to the bottom end of the totem pole.

 

The real evil in war lies behind well behind those soldiers and their behaviour......look to the politicians, industrialists and generals (what C. Wright Mills described as the "power elite") for the real cause of war......and all that flows from it.  The power elite exists in any country large enough to go to war with another country.   They'll do it for as long as it suits (and enriches) them and then they'll stop.   It's not personal for them.....it's business.

 

The soldiers in the photo are just pawns in the game....

Maybe so, but they crossed the line from soldier to terrorist, or murderers, if one prefers.  Solldiers are trained to kill people and break things, sure, but military targets, not unarmed civilians.  Can't say for sure, but I feel certain the MH17 was broadcasting all necessary information to identify themselves as civilian, not military.  With the technology available on the battlefield today, the missile site crew KNEW what they were targeting.  I don't consider those passengers casualties of war, I consider them murder victims.   ..and the people on MH17 are victims of victims.  And my original description of the "soldiers" still stands.

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Maybe so, but they crossed the line from soldier to terrorist, or murderers, if one prefers. 

 

I'm not justifying their behaviour but rather making the point that war is barbarous - regardless of who's involved.  

 

The fact is that we don't even know who is responsible.  Based on their recent conduct, the Ukraine government isn't any more credible than the Russian separatists.  How do we know that a Ukrainian missile battery didn't fire the missile......perhaps in the mistaken belief that it was a Russian fighter.

 

Solldiers are trained to kill people and break things, sure, but military targets, not unarmed civilians. 

 

Tell that to the families of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Aghanis who have died in the war to "liberate" their countries.   Tell that to the families of the Palestinian dead and injured arising out of the Israeli "response" to the Hamas rocket attacks.

 

Can't say for sure, but I feel certain the MH17 was broadcasting all necessary information to identify themselves as civilian, not military.  With the technology available on the battlefield today, the missile site crew KNEW what they were targeting. 

 

It's all guesswork on our part.....and the authorities are only going to tell us what they want us to know....and what suits their purposes.   Don't kid yourself about the capacity of technology to always make useful battlefield distinctions.  Talk to the soldiers who have been involved in "friendly fire" incidents.

 

I don't consider those passengers casualties of war, I consider them murder victims.   

 

And nor do I.  I'm simply making the point that becoming partisan in a situation like this is just an extension of a much bigger problem.  Until we humans let go of our predilection for violence this, and similar tragedies, are going to continue.

 

I'm sad for those who lost family members and friends on MH17.......and I'm similarly disturbed by the images of tiny children (without their arms and legs) in Palestinian hospitals.......and my heart goes out to the families of the Ukrainians and the Russian separatists who are dying in that conflict.....and to the people who died in the 9/11 attacks.  No-one has a monopoly on misery and suffering.......and violence is bad regardless of who perpetrates it.

 

And my original description of the "soldiers" still stands.

 

And you're entitled to your opinion.....but your real argument should be with those who orchestrate (and benefit from) these conflicts.

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I blame Putin. He and those like him (Chavez) use the democratic election system to get into power and them find ways to stay there. Putin and those like them are the real thugs and are to blame for the war.  he wants the territory, starting with Ukrane, that Russia had under the USSR. He is a KGB  throwback.

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Drawing a link between Putin and Chavez.. is a bit like drawing a link between Obama and Netanyahu... :D

The link is clear, the tactic to get into and stay in power.  One of the problems with democracies is that unscrupulous people can manipulate the system to achieve power and then change the rules to stay there. If the people allow them to do that, they too get what they deserve in the end.

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One of the problems with democracies is that unscrupulous people can manipulate the system to achieve power and then change the rules to stay there. If the people allow them to do that, they too get what they deserve in the end.

 

And how exactly (other than by degrees of spin doctoring)... is that different in any "democracy" :D

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And how exactly (other than by degrees of spin doctoring)... is that different in any "democracy" :D

Democracy belongs to the people. It is only stable as long as the people are willing to defend it.  As the American founders said, we have given you a republic, if you can keep it.  The greatest enemy of democracy, any democracy is apathy.

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Democracy belongs to the people. It is only stable as long as the people are willing to defend it.  As the American founders said, we have given you a republic, if you can keep it.  The greatest enemy of democracy, any democracy is apathy.

 

One of the problems with democracies is that unscrupulous people can manipulate the system to achieve power and then change the rules to stay there. If the people allow them to do that, they too get what they deserve in the end.

 

:D

Edited by RupertofOZ (see edit history)

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Democracy belongs to the people. It is only stable as long as the people are willing to defend it. As the American founders said, we have given you a republic, if you can keep it. The greatest enemy of democracy, any democracy is apathy.

But America isn't a democracy, as you say it's a republic meaning our forefathers didn't trust the populace to make decisions on their own but would rather have elected or appointed officials make them for them. But I do know what you mean.

One could make the argument that the level of education was much lower then and therefore the emphasis on representation. I sometimes wonder if we trully are more educated now. You sure got the apathy right!

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)

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I blame Putin. He and those like him (Chavez) use the democratic election system to get into power and them find ways to stay there. Putin and those like them are the real thugs and are to blame for the war. he wants the territory, starting with Ukrane, that Russia had under the USSR. He is a KGB throwback.

Do you think we should get involved in a country where much of the population is loyal to Russia and some of the leadership is just as corrupt? I'm all for being there with whatever it takes for NATO countries but this country looks like it has all the ingredients for a quagmire and a war with Russia.

If Putin had designs on Poland I'd be there in a heartbeat if my squadron needed me. The Poles don't deserve another war or occupation.

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)

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But America isn't a democracy, as you say it's a republic meaning our forefathers didn't trust the populace to make decisions on their own but would rather have elected or appointed officials make them for them. But I do know what you mean.

One could make the argument that the level of education was much lower then and therefore the emphasis on representation. I sometimes wonder if we trully are more educated now. You sure got the apathy right!

There was also a land ownership aspect to it. Today, we have a democracy destroying our republic because the people have figured out they can take thru the vote what does not belong to them. The founders warned of this as well. In fact, the founders gave us all the info we needed along with cautions to keep the republic strong. But the people on average do not know, and so do not learn, from their history.  They support the politicians who promise them the most of other people's money, and that will always lead to eventual collapse.

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Do you think we should get involved in a country where much of the population is loyal to Russia and some of the leadership is just as corrupt? I'm all for being there with whatever it takes for NATO countries but this country looks like it has all the ingredients for a quagmire and a war with Russia.

If Putin had designs on Poland I'd be there in a heartbeat if my squadron needed me. The Poles don't deserve another war or occupation.

As much as I hate Putin, we cannot do anything about it in our current political state. The US is no longer a leader of free nations. And we cannot go it alone. 

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Indeed. He moves troops and ammunition in and then lies about it to the World.  Why? Because he knows he can get away with it. He couldn't care less about lost lives, national integrity, or the sovereignty of others. 

Edited by Strider (see edit history)

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Hi,

 

The US is no longer a leader of free nations. And we cannot go it alone. 

 

The US Government probably ceded that title because of Vietnam......and iced the cake with Iraq and Afghanistan.  Hardly honourable conflicts any of them.

 

How can the world be critical of Putin in the face of so much dishonesty from the governments of the US, Britain and (by extension) Australia.

 

Until a body (like the United Nations but not the United Nations) can be established......to which all of the major world powers are signatories......can be established to deal in concepts like justice and fairness....we can only expect to see a deterioration in ethical standards in all of the world's doings.

 

For all of its failings, the European Union is a much better model for the management of the world's affairs than was ever provided by the US or the Soviet Union.  At least the EU seems to be able to get its head around the role of small farmers in a modern world.

 

The key thing is to get this little human frailty called greed out of the equation.  When we start to talk about the interests of the US, Russia, Ukraine or whoever what we're really thinking about is the privileged elite that run those countries......not for the benefit of their peoples, but rather the narrow interests of the greedy bastards who pull the strings.

 

In my view, a good first job for the new United Nations would be to thoroughly investigate that grubby entity known as the Saudi Royal Family....with a view to a fair trial followed by swift justice.  It can't be any coincidence that these privileged arseholes show up every time there's a world-changing event (e.g.....9/11)....usually in close proximity to a member of the Bush Family.  These are the "good friends" of the American people who just happen to spawn, train and bankroll the majority of the world's more accomplished terrorists.

 

Gary

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Hi,

 

 

The US Government probably ceded that title because of Vietnam......and iced the cake with Iraq and Afghanistan.  Hardly honourable conflicts any of them.

 

How can the world be critical of Putin in the face of so much dishonesty from the governments of the US, Britain and (by extension) Australia.

 

Until a body (like the United Nations but not the United Nations) can be established......to which all of the major world powers are signatories......can be established to deal in concepts like justice and fairness....we can only expect to see a deterioration in ethical standards in all of the world's doings.

 

For all of its failings, the European Union is a much better model for the management of the world's affairs than was ever provided by the US or the Soviet Union.  At least the EU seems to be able to get its head around the role of small farmers in a modern world.

 

The key thing is to get this little human frailty called greed out of the equation.  When we start to talk about the interests of the US, Russia, Ukraine or whoever what we're really thinking about is the privileged elite that run those countries......not for the benefit of their peoples, but rather the narrow interests of the greedy bastards who pull the strings.

 

In my view, a good first job for the new United Nations would be to thoroughly investigate that grubby entity known as the Saudi Royal Family....with a view to a fair trial followed by swift justice.  It can't be any coincidence that these privileged arseholes show up every time there's a world-changing event (e.g.....9/11)....usually in close proximity to a member of the Bush Family.  These are the "good friends" of the American people who just happen to spawn, train and bankroll the majority of the world's more accomplished terrorists.

 

Gary

A lot of unsubstantiated opinion in that. I was going to give an opinion but most people cannot hear the truth without being insulted and getting bent out of shape so I will refrain. Not an easy thing for me to do.

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Hi Strider,

 

Since neither you nor I get invited to the cosy fireside chats of the likes of Putin, Obama and all of the other movers and shakers in the world, there is always going to be a measure of unsubstantiated opinion in any observation that we might make about world affairs.

 

So long as we refrain from personal attacks, that's what this particular Lounge Room forum is for.

 

Just a caution on "the truth"....your version of it is no less subject to challenge than that of anyone else.  Remember, most of this stuff is now verifiable to some extent or the other.

 

If you have a view of things that you feel is worth sharing, go for it.

 

Gary

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Hi Strider,

 

Since neither you nor I get invited to the cosy fireside chats of the likes of Putin, Obama and all of the other movers and shakers in the world, there is always going to be a measure of unsubstantiated opinion in any observation that we might make about world affairs.

 

So long as we refrain from personal attacks, that's what this particular Lounge Room forum is for.

 

Just a caution on "the truth"....your version of it is no less subject to challenge than that of anyone else.  Remember, most of this stuff is now verifiable to some extent or the other.

 

If you have a view of things that you feel is worth sharing, go for it.

 

Gary

No, better not.  The World has gone mad (liberal) and that madness is causing strife. I value the friendships here more than I value laying my own opinion on others.  

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No, better not. The World has gone mad (liberal) and that madness is causing strife. I value the friendships here more than I value laying my own opinion on others.

So anyone that does not espouse your conservative opinions is mad? How about all the damage that was done in this country by alledged conservatives? You know, keeping down minorities, women, proping up the rich elite, and allowing coroprations to avoid taxes by locating their headquarters off shore? And then there are the neoconservatives that think we need to be involved in the affairs of other countries and even wage war on them because we don't agree with their ideology.The invasion of Iraq was not only a big ass blunder it was based on a lie just as our involvement in Vietnam was (Gulf of Tonkin Resolution).

It works both ways. To bame the problems of the world on "liberals" is too simplistic. There is plenty of blame to go around for both spectrums of politics.

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)

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The problem I see with Ukraine is too much of the populace is pro Russian. If every last person in the country was against the actions of Russia, and there were no rebels, Russia would have a much harder time doing what they are doing.

My source that hails from Russia and now lives in Canada says Russia is already invading with all kinds of heavy equipment. In fact it's on the news now.

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)

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So anyone that does not espouse your conservative opinions is mad? How about all the damage that was done in this country by alledged conservatives? You know, keeping down minorities, women, proping up the rich elite, and allowing coroprations to avoid taxes by locating their headquarters off shore? And then there are the neoconservatives that think we need to be involved in the affairs of other countries and even wage war on them because we don't agree with their ideology.The invasion of Iraq was not only a big ass blunder it was based on a lie just as our involvement in Vietnam was (Gulf of Tonkin Resolution).

It works both ways. To bame the problems of the world on "liberals" is too simplistic. There is plenty of blame to go around for both spectrums of politics.

Seriously?  It was the democrats in the 60s that fought against the civil rights act and was the republicans that pushed to get it passed.  The idea that conservatives, the GOP, the Party of Licoln, are trying to keep miinorities down is absurd and flys in the face of historical fact. The "war on women" is a left wing fantesy to garner support by using fear. I have 5 girls, do you really think I am tryiong to hurt them? 

Your narrative that corporations are allowed to avoid taxes is another myth since corporations pay roughly 10% od all tax revenue.  The so called rich pay most of the rest.  Taxing the wealthy to death to fulfill some ideological utopia only hurts the economy and brings distrust of government.  Corrupt lifers who view politics as a carreer to get rich rather than a calling is one of this nations biggest problems. The elected make deals with the Devil and do not represent the elected. That is starting to change as the people's eyes have been opened by the overt corruption of the current democrats from the President who outright lies to the people to the likes of Reid and Pelosi who are both incompetent and not fit to lead.  Obama usewd the IRS, the most abusive government agency in the nation, to attack his opponents!  That is unheard of in this nation and brings us on a par with other banana republics in terms of corruption. 

While other Western nations saw the wrighting on the wall in Bhengazi and were pulling their diplomats out, our Secretary of State, who wants to be President, ignored repeated requests for additional security and was asleep on her watch as the US ambassdor and others were murdered. 

Incompetance on a staggering level. And after all the screw ups, Obama, who knew nothing and claims he found out about all these things via the news media, claims he is "investigating" all these things and will take action, yet to date years after Fast and Furious, Benghazi, the IRS crimes, the Veterans fiasco, and others, no one is held accountable and nothing is done.  In fact, the people involved are promoted, most likey to ensure their silence to protect Obama.

Sorry, this is not the party to lead this nation since the left has gone crazy far left.  But at least you can take solice in the idea that if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor, oh wait, that was another lie.

I have never said the repuiblicans are blameless, but I live in the here and now. 

Edited by Strider (see edit history)

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