Cecil

Advantages of below ground tanks and the filtration system?

15 posts in this topic

What are the advantages and disadvantages of tanks where the water surface is at ground level and the filter components are below ground?

How does this specifically effect the use of airlifts as the principal and only vehicle to move water?

For my particular proposed system, which will be coldwater fish, where keeping the water cold is paramount, and it will be inside an insulated pole building in the summer, it would seem an in ground tank would be easier to keep cool in the summer wouldn't it? Additionally the water temps would be more stable in winter by having them below ground wouldn't they?

Keep in mind this will have to be partially recirculating to keep water temps low enough and nitrates low as trout are sensitive to nitrates unlike other species. Also the building will be well insulated but not heated or cooled.

And since aethetics are less important than functionality and economics, if I go the route of below ground tanks I was thinking of inserting Intex pools in excavated ground surrouded by concrete, gravel or anoher surface ar the floor level.

Thoughts?

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)

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Hi Cecil

For any new building I would look in to pasiv house tech. I have no plans to build allready have to much space to take care of, but Im trying to convert and incorporate different types to the excisting 2 houses.

My cooling/slaughter room, is located in a concrete cellar with two walls under ground fully insulated basment floor uninsulated (big mistake) the rooms holds 8 -12 C steady winter/summer with only the active heat source from a freezer and 3 28 watt lights, the ground temp here is aprox 7C year around at 2m depth.

 

I have put coils for water born heating/cooling in a few floors for future use I will go geothermal collectors and storage of heat in ground (burried in waterlogged peatsoil) parts of that is done as well. I have plenty of fire wood on my land and the houses is heated either by that, and/or electrisity, at currant time.  I will have the buildings converted or more correctly the 3. option (geotherm) at some stage ?

I have looked at this cut/paste from here http://www.norishouse.com/PAHS/UmbrellaHouse.html

..........The Geodome, the house we built in the cold and cloudy climate of western Montana, remains at 66 to 68 degrees F, even through the coldest winters...................

 

And I will use some of that tech. at some stage as well I think.

 

Permaculture principles I hope to incorporate in as many ways as possible, I'm slowly progressing in that direction

 

cheers

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Cecil,

 

Making use of geothermal/ground-source heating/cooling techniques should be an ideal situation for you considering the temperature preferences of your target fish (cold water fish).  

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Cecil,

 

By burying the tanks you are going to add the thermal mass of the surrounding ground to buffer your tank water temperature. Are you going to bury insulation around the outside of the pole building to isolate the ground/foundation from the surrounding area? If you look at a passive solar house, there is insulation surrounding the basement/foundation/slab is goes a below the lowest part. The idea is to increase the thermal mass and isolate it from the outside environment.

 

take a look at this site, http://www.builditsolar.com/

 

Regards, Jack

Edited by jbman (see edit history)

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Cecil,

 

By burying the tanks you are going to add the thermal mass of the surrounding ground to buffer your tank water temperature. Are you going to bury insulation around the outside of the pole building to isolate the ground/foundation from the surrounding area? If you look at a passive solar house, there is insulation surrounding the basement/foundation/slab is goes a below the lowest part. The idea is to increase the thermal mass and isolate it from the outside environment.

 

take a look at this site, http://www.builditsolar.com/

 

Regards, Jack

 

 

Thanks Jack.

 

Yes I hope to insulate the perimeter of the building to keep the cold and heat out. Thanks for the link.

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)

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I got this response to the same question from an experienced buider of koi ponds Thoughts? It seem counter intuitive to me but the man is usually very knowledgable and I appreciate the time he took to respond in length to this and other questions.

 

I've been giving this some thought before designing my next pond here in AZ. I believe the insulation will be doing the exact opposite of what you want. Insulation doesn't keep things warn or cold, it only slows the transfer of heat. So in the summer the air is hot and the soil is cooler. Since the air and the pond water are on the same side of the insulation the heat would move from the air to the water. The insulation would slow the movement of heat from the water to the soil. So the water would be hotter in summer if there is insulation. This assumes your soil 2-3' down is cooler than summer daytime temps.

In winter heat transfer from the soil to the water would be slowed by the insulation. Again the air would be colder than the soil so heat would move from the water to the air while the insulation slowed heat transfer to the water. Water would be much colder with the insulation than without.

The insulation would also cause the water temp to fluctuate much more. Soil temp is more stable than air. The insulation would slow the soil's ability to stabilize water temp while doing nothing to slow the air's ability to change the the water's temp.

The only time insulation helps is if the pond is inside a heated/cooled building. There you're paying to heat/cool the air which the water picks up and you want to stop temp transfer to soil. Or if you heat/cool the water directly you don't want loss going into the soil. Loss will still happen to the air so still pretty expensive.

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)

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Hi Cecil

He is wrong for the most, only right about the air will influence the surface of the pond heat/cool deepending on season, and more outside than inside, and offcourse in a shallow pond dark collored in direct sun and no vinds, you would experience that the water is fast heating....... and a shalow pond directly exposed to vind chill in the winter.

But neither is the case in a well planed pond/tank more thermal mass (water/rocks/concrete) means more storage volum, and more insulation means less temp fluctuations.

 

In the solar link it was a nice DIY download on geothermal heat/chill system much like what I'm on to 

 

cheers

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Hi again Cecil

You hav to plow thru this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer and particularly this part

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer#Buildings

It is far more complex than waterbugs explaination/theori so many factors in play that has to be met.

 

Like I said in the post above I regret not insulating under my concrete flor/slab in the slaughter/cooling room, when/if I want a higer temp than the ground provide aprox 7-10C depending on season I loose to the ground because I have to heat more than the ground can give (pasive) werry litle because heat primarly rise, but I still loose some.

If you plan to have higer temp in the pond/building than you have in the surounding ground (and you do) you can only win on insulating (the more the better) you will no matter get the heat from the ground for free the rest you have to provide one way or another, and this aplyes also in a open to air pond/swimingpool etc. once its more than 4-5 feet deep. even a icecap on a pond works as a insulater.

This is werry well known tech. and should be carefully planed by some one that has the knowledge, I have seen some good knowledge on this on pondboss forum.

 

cheers

edit:

You should read/look at web4deb's thread or videos as well http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=8898

He uses sand with briks as flooring to distribute and hold temp wery well explained and a good alternative to concrete.Iimportant that it's dry and well drained under the floor and up against and around the walls no matter wich choise of material

Edited by ande (see edit history)

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The ground temperature starts to really level out as you go past 6 foot, below that it should be within a few degrees of the average yearly temperature for your latitude. Mine is 16.9 oC. 62.4 F

It would be interesting to know what temperature the water you pump out of the well is when it has been running for a while and does it change as the water filters out of the rock?

Edited by yahoo2 (see edit history)

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The water from my well is a consistent 51.6 F (11 c.) and comes from the half way point of an 88 foot well. No changes in temp.

For the flow through trout pond i run 45 gpm 24/7 about 8 months of the year.

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The ground temperature starts to really level out as you go past 6 foot, below that it should be within a few degrees of the average yearly temperature for your latitude. Mine is 16.9 oC. 62.4 F

 

Remember that even thoug thats a rule of tumb, there is large local variations, because the average is in a specific type soil  ground (depth,moist,drainage,porosyty,thiknes to bedrock...... etc).

So it is only a general guide of potential just like with sun houers, at laditude if you are in a deep wally or behind a tall building..... then the rule of tumb is off at the particular spot.

You can also influence the soil temp that is what is done in the umbrellahouse priciples and then they harwest on the wind drafts using airducts in manipulated top soils and sloopings of terain.

I'w seen Dutch design smart houses, where all this is incorporated in the building(s) harwesting on all including heat/chill on all "waste" water black/grey/rain/runoff/snow/ground ice-crust/wetland.... by maping & manipulating the total water resources available ........and meet all the requirement's regardless of initial costs.

 

 

 

Offcourse this is not "cost effective" nor advicable to adopt/copy directly, just like on sun, wind, tide.......... tech. 

But to pick out, and integrate, the parts that are suited & ideal on location, is a matter of "long therm" and indefinite investements, often beyond your buisniss scope horizon.

I hope I can live here untill the day I die afford it & thrive, (that is living to me) and that eventualy the next owner, feel the same ? (hopefully one/more of my kids?) So I keep planting my walnut's in a 250year ROI plan :sword:

 

 

It would be interesting to know what temperature the water you pump out of the well is when it has been running for a while and does it change as the water filters out of the rock?

 

Agree, thats youre most stable temp source also max/min volume and cost of pumping to higest "head" and maybe time of day/night and season to pump? Here we pay a variable price on power iff you have a smart meeter on your grid intake it can tell iff you are tapping at a time of the day when the demand/price is high or low, these things are marginal but still part of a overall equation in a overall waterbudget IMO

It is a delicate ballancing act to decide or invest in your home, more so, than in a buissnis IMO, you are willing to invest more money and time, but less likely to take a high risk, when your home is your working place & part off income with mixed budgets, including all the thecnical on the taxes what is privat and what is buisnis........

The oppertunities are larger on a bigger lot, and if the investment benefits can be spread on more objects, like buildings sharing facillietys, or by being a farmer you have the tool park, so to move around soils or harwest your building  materials like, clay soil,wood  etc. then it might be more afordable but a lot of work :phew: or pass time deepending on how you look at it. (time)

If you plan to sell your place and move on within the nexst years the hole thing changes at least a bit. 

 

Your Iron/bucket separator is also heating and aeraiting your source water, and you manipulate the temp C/F  by enclosing/exposing it to wind/sun/shade....... more or less actively ?

 

got to go my sister just droped in visiting from Wales :bow:

 

cheers

 

hehe you posted inbetween my typing this

Edited by ande (see edit history)

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Good stuff Andy.

Just finished my term as the state aquaculture president and passed off the newsletter duties, so I will have more time with the personal aquaculture and the taxidermy, which brings in the money I need to save to build things. My aquaculture niche market brings in very good money for the effort, but at this point in time is only seasonal.

I may be spending less time here as the nose needs to get to the grind stone as they say here in the U.S. OTOH I may be here more!

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)

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Cecil,

 

Just wanted to say THANK YOU for including Aquaponics Nation in the Indiana Aquaculture Association newsletter.  I ran across a digital copy of it while searching google and noticed you placed a prominent link to AquaponicsNation.com in it.  VERY COOL man! Spreading the good word. Love it!  :)

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