GaryD

US Government Shutdown

97 posts in this topic

Hi,

 

We're all hearing plenty about the US Government Shutdown.

 

What is the day-to-day impact of the shutdown for the American people.

 

What is the core issue here?   Is it really about Obamacare?  If so, isn't universal health care one hallmark of a civilised country?

 

Gary

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Gary,  Here is the scoop.

 

There are a group of radical right wing politicians that have slowly been elected into the Republican party, colloquially referred to as "tea party republicans" or "the tea party", with a somewhat vague reference to the Boston Tea Party event in 1773.  Our House of Representatives is Republication controlled, and our Senate is Democrat controlled.  The affordable care act, also known as Obamacare, has been president Obama's big running platform and together with a majority vote from both Democrats and Republicans, it passed into law.  It even was scrutinized by the U.S. Supreme Court, and was found to be constitutional.  Republicans have screamed and hollered over it, and probably have many amendments to it, but it still was signed into law.  Our issue is that our two party system is so very polarized at this time, with what seems, a large group of individuals that have been put into that party with very radical points of view.

 

The issue is the Republicans would not agree to a budget without defunding the affordable care act for a year even though it has passed into law.  Budgets in the U.S. must pass the House of Representatives, then the Senate, then have the President sign off on it to make it official, or valid, or accepted.  The Democrat controlled Senate, of course, would not agree to this -- on the premise that the last couple of years would have been for absolutely nothing.  It isn't really a disagreement over a budget, but rather an asshole move, closer to a fillibuster, but with far grater consequences.  Essentially this has already been through the ringer and is a bonafide law, set to be activated on day 1 of the new fiscal year.  My take on the issue is that it is a very reckless and dangerous stunt that is being pulled and is undermining how our government is supposed to work.

 

Yes, I would agree that health care is sort of like running water, food, shelter and electricity and part of a civilized society.  A good discussion about how to pay for it should and apparently has been had.  It is a good step in the right direction.  Let's not even get into how U.S. health care is *the most expensive* in the entire world, and is nowhere near the best.  Our broadband internet connectivity is very similar...very expensive and not nearly the best.  We have problems with things like that it seems.

Edited by craig1267 (see edit history)

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Ehh... the day to day hasn't changed other than the shutting down of national parks and museums...

Our government wasn't doing much but botching things and giving Americans a black eye anyways... so really them "shutting down" only means we have less to dislike them for... I think its all planned... the government has been under a lot of heat due to the Benghazi and NSA thing.... so really its keeping them from looking worse....

Can't screw up if you aren't allowed to play.

Granted I've heard rumors that food stamps and other government assistance programs are running behind... but since I work for what I have, as many other Americans do, not much has changed in the daily grind.

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Gary,  Here is the scoop.  This entire reply is a huge oversimplification of the issues.

 

There are a group of radical right wing politicians that have slowly been elected into the Republican party, colloquially referred to as "tea party republicans" or "the tea party", with a somewhat vague reference to the Boston Tea Party event in 1773.  Our House of Representatives is Republication controlled, and our Senate is Democrat controlled.  The affordable care act, also known as Obamacare, has been president Obama's big running platform and together with a majority vote from both Democrats and Republicans, it passed into law. ....Late at night under a cloture rule when many senators were not present- a maneuver considered highly unetical by many.  It even was scrutinized by the U.S. Supreme Court, and was found to be constitutional. That's debatable, too.  Was found marginaly constitutional only on the grounds that the penalties are considered a tax.   Republicans have screamed and hollered over it, and probably have many amendments to it, but it still was signed into law.  Our issue is that our two party system is so very polarized at this time, with what seems, a large group of individuals that have been put into that party That party?  Which party are you referring to?  Seems Reid, Pelosi, etc are just as radical. with very radical points of view.  Since when is personal responsibility, self reliance and not expecting the govt to give you everything considered radical?

 

The issue is the Republicans would not agree to a budget without defunding the affordable care act for a year even though it has passed into law.  Budgets in the U.S. must pass the House of Representatives, then the Senate, then have the President sign off on it to make it official, or valid, or accepted.  The Democrat controlled Senate, of course, would not agree to this -- on the premise that the last couple of years would have been for absolutely nothing. For the "last couple of years", over four to be exact, the senate has neglected their constitutionally mandated duties..... to pass a budget.  The house has passed and presented many, the senate simply ignores them.    It isn't really a disagreement over a budget, Maybe not on the surface, but look deeper.  We are over 17 TRILLION dollars in debt.  Over 80 Trillion when you add in all the unfunded, off budget liabilities our govt. has accrued, but are not telling us about.  We don't need the additional burden of Obamacare.  ther an asshole move, closer to a fillibuster, but with far grater consequences. Yeah, maybe now we can see just how many "unessential" govt workers and programs we can do without.  Essentially this has already been through the ringer and is a bonafide law, set to be activated on day 1 of the new fiscal year.  My take on the issue is that it is a very reckless and dangerous stunt that is being pulled and is undermining how our government is supposed to work.  This is exactly how govt works.  Maybe not supposed to work, but still, constitutional.  The House has passed and presented to the senate many budget items to fund parts of the govt. to forestall a shutdown.  But, the Senate - Reid - has simply said No.  So, this is not just "radical right wing Republicans".  Reid won't compromise, Obama won't compromise.  The Left, Democrats, are being just as hard-headed and are using their authority to make things look just as bad as they possibly can in order to make their point......why shut down privately funded places that take absolutely NO govt dollars, but are merely sitting on a plot of govt property, using no govt employees or resources?  To Obama it's all or nothing.   Plus, the mainstream news media is complicit in the effort to make things look as bad as they possibly can.

 

Yes, I would agree that health care is sort of like running water, food, shelter and electricity and part of a civilized society.   A good discussion about how to pay for it should and apparently has been had.  It is a good step in the right direction. Maybe.  If it's so good,  why is our congress exempting themselves?  Why do we need to subsudize all the congresional staffers 75% of their cost?  Why are the labor unions (who originally supported Obama) now screaming for an exemption?  Why is there such a long list of major corporations petitioning for exemption?  Why are many, many businesses cutting workers from a 40 hour workweek to a 29 hour workweek?  Why do the polls show a majority of citizens against this trainwreck?  I guess quite a few people have finally had the opportunity to read what's in the bill and figured out that Obamacare is a monsterous intrusion into everyone's life, not to mention being 180 degrees out from what was promised - by Obama.  Every business person I know is very much against this.  The only people I know personally who are in favor of this are the ones who voted for Obama in the first place.   Let's not even get into how U.S. health care is *the most expensive* in the entire world, and is nowhere near the best.  Oh, really?  Why do so many come from other countries to our doctors and hospitals for treatment?  Our broadband internet connectivity is very similar...very expensive and not nearly the best.  We have problems with things like that it seems.  

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Hi,

 

There appear to be so many divisive issues in the US at the moment.

 

The "haves" seem unwilling to acknowledge that the "have-nots" should be taken account of.

 

The country still seems uncomfortable that it has a black president......who seemingly only got elected because the most viable alternative was a woman.  

 

The world's economic powerhouse is evidently.....not!    Has anybody considered that the reason that the US is in such a parlous financial state is not because of its social welfare programs but rather because it's been waging war almost continuously since 1941?  

 

The more I read and see, the more I understand how the American Civil War happened.   When you see the intolerance that Americans demonstrate toward each other....the death threats against the democratically-elected President.....the existence of militias who openly preach hatred.....the inconsistencies around what the founding fathers spoke of and what exists now.

 

I'm just wondering how long it will be before the nation turns on itself again.  Contrary to the idea behind the Second Amendment, the guns that are being gathered are less likely to be used to bring down an evil government and more likely to be used to slaughter other Americans......all because of polarisation around things that ought to be a given.....like food, shelter, security......and healthcare.

 

I think it's time for the US to revisit the notion of democracy.......and to skip trying to be the world's policeman.  It's time to go home and look after its own people.....and to rebuild the nation based on the noble ideas that brought it into being.

 

Don't misunderstand me.....I'm not taking any comfort from any of this.  I like Americans.  Next to the British, and New Zealanders, they're the closest thing to us in so many ways.  But I fear for the US and its people. 

 

As Ande says......Yust me thinking!

 

Gary

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its a mess...

 

we have the economic debacle, we have the questioning of war mongering to provide jobs and profits, we have the questionable practices of the government being brought to light and we have a struggle (again) of states rights vs. federal rule. i know there's more going on... but those are the big one...

 

even if a civil war were to be mounted, there'd be too many fractions of americans going at each other.

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Hi,

 

There appear to be so many divisive issues in the US at the moment.

 

The "haves" seem unwilling to acknowledge that the "have-nots" should be taken account of.  Probably wouldn't be so bad if the "have nots" would at least make an effort to better themselves.

 

The country still seems uncomfortable that it has a black president......who seemingly only got elected because the most viable alternative was a woman.  Maybe......  

 

LEST WE FORGET
* In 59 voting districts in the Philadelphia 
region, Obama received 100% of the votes 
with not even a single vote recorded for Romney. 
(A mathematical and statistical impossibility).
 
* In 21 districts in Wood County Ohio, Obama 
received 100% of the votes where GOP 
inspectors were illegally removed from their 
polling locations - and not one single vote
was recorded for Romney.  
(Another statistical impossibility).
 
* In Wood County Ohio, 106,258 voted in a 
county with only 98,213 eligible voters.
 
* In
St
. Lucie County, FL, there were 175,574 
registered eligible voters but 247,713 votes 
were cast.
 
* The National SEAL Museum, a polling location
in
St
. Lucie County, FL had a 158% voter turnout.
 
* Palm Beach County, FL had a 141% voter turnout.
 
* In Ohio County, Obama won by 108% of the 
total number of eligible voters.
 
NOTE: Obama won in every state that did not 
require a Photo ID and lost in every state that 
did require a Photo ID in order to vote.  
Imagine that!
 

 

 

The world's economic powerhouse is evidently.....not!    Has anybody considered that the reason that the US is in such a parlous financial state is not because of its social welfare programs but rather because it's been waging war almost continuously since 1941? Our current perilous financial state is partly due to the social welfare programs.  When illegal immigrants are "entitled" to more than a responcible citizen working to take care of himself and family ... we have a problem.  When someone on welfare has more disposeable income than a responcible person trying to work a job and take care of himself .... we have a problem.    

 

The more I read and see, the more I understand how the American Civil War happened. Maybe.  The Civil War - The War Between the States - was more about states rights than slavery.  Just depends on who wrote the history book you read.   When you see the intolerance that Americans demonstrate toward each other....the death threats against the democratically-elected President..  Yeah well, see above. ...the existence of militias who openly preach hatred.....the inconsistencies around what the founding fathers spoke of and what exists now.  Our founding fathes were very wize and brave gentlemen.  Modern politicians and lawyers (yeah, I know - redundant) have turned everything on it's head with all their hair-splitting and double-speak.   We need a govt that doesn't try to micromanage everything and stop making new laws, regulations, etc that contradict or cloud previous issues.  They never seem to consider the Law of Unintended  Consequences.

 

I'm just wondering how long it will be before the nation turns on itself again.  Contrary to the idea behind the Second Amendment, the guns that are being gathered are less likely to be used to bring down an evil government and more likely to be used to slaughter other Americans......all because of polarisation around things that ought to be a given.....like food, shelter, security......and healthcare.    Healtcare was a given.  No one was denied healthcare.  We've had county hospital emergency rooms available for anyone not covered by insurance.  Maybe not the best or fastest way, but they did work.  Medicare, Medicaid, community clinics and hospitals worked.  But, healthcare is not a "right" as some like to say.  A "right" means you are entitled to something.  I don't think anyone has the right to anyone else's time or resources such a doctor's time or a right to free medicine.  Sounds harsh, I know, but we're writing here, not talking face to face.  I do give to a few charities and I will stop and help someone.  But, I would much rather give $$ to an individual in need instead of an organized charity with an overpaid board of directors with no accountability to donors.   As I see it, our healthcare system under medicare, etc  is in money trouble and Obamacare is just a way of getting more money for our social healthcare system under the guise of a "fair" federal law instead of going through the process of raising taxes.  A politician talking taxes is a good way to either win voters or loose voters, depending on which segment of the population you're talking to and what you're offering each one.  Obamacare is raising taxes through the back door.   If our govt officials were responcible stewards of our tax dollars instead of peeing it away on sensless programs and folish police actions I think we'd be much better off.  Instead, we're so deep in the hole financally I'm not sure we'll ever recover.  Hell, our total debt is practicaly the GDP of the entire civilized world. 

 

I think it's time for the US to revisit the notion of democracy... we still have a democracy, but it's a representative democracy.  We elect people to represent us.  Problem is, those we elect turn into professional politicians who evolve into two-faced bastards.  They say what we want to hear, but do as they please ..... as long as it benefits them.  A full-fledged true democracy with such a large population as ours would be nothing more than a shouting match with the loudest special interest group winning ........ as long as they are able to hold on till the next special interest group raises up.  ....and to skip trying to be the world's policeman. Tell that to the politicians in charge.  As a society, I think we've all had enough of being the world's policemen.  It's time to go home and look after its own people

 

.....and to rebuild the nation based on the noble ideas that brought it into being. Too late.  We're pretty much past the point-of-no-return.  Self responcibility and self reliance are pretty much out the window. 

 

Don't misunderstand me.....I'm not taking any comfort from any of this.  I like Americans.  Next to the British, and New Zealanders, they're the closest thing to us in so many ways.  But I fear for the US and its people. 

 

As Ande says......Yust me thinking!  Yeah, me too

 

Gary

 

Edited by Aufin (see edit history)

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The problem as I see it (I have an American wife) is the way Health is provided in the US - they need to get the insurance companies out of having control of who gets what services. The US pays something like 6 times the amount per person for healthcare (and that's just what the Govt puts in) and gets far less in terms of delivered services. France and Scandinavia give everyone good health outcomes for free and still pay 1/6th the US bill per capita.

 

The US insurance companies soak up the $$, not the health industry.

 

People go to the States for specialised treatment only because, if you CAN pay, there are some excellent facilities - but the man in the street gets none of that. The man in the street is damn lucky if he has insurance and even luckier if they actually allow him to be treated. 

 

My wife had a hospital check the insurance company for permission to treat her, then 6 months later, the insurance company told the hospital they decided not to cover heer and she got presented with a $2500 bill. Nice predatory behaviour, doncha think?

 

And while there can be treatment delays in socialised systems, they are nothing like what is made out to be the case by those in the US trying to demonise socialist attitudes towards the citizens. My wife had her gall bladder removed just hours after she presented with crippling pain, 2 nights in a ward, multiple tests and Doctor visits and the total cost to us was $5.90 for some pain meds to take home with us.

 

She had another visit (for different reasons) where her total time in the hospital was about 4.5 hours - in that time she saw 2 Doctors, had an x-ray and an ultrasound, blood work and good care by the nurses and it cost us nothing. The 4.5 hours included more than 1.5 hours in Emergency.

 

In Australia and most if not all 'socialist' countries, the Doctor decides what treatment is given and when, not some pencil-neck whose job it is to collect bonuses NOT to pay for treatment.

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Hi Aufin,

 

Welcome to Aquaponics Nation.

 

Who provided the voting outcomes that you quoted?  They have a touch of the moon-landing, 9/11, reptilian elite and other conspiracy theories that seem to resonate with some people.  To achieve anything like the massive distortions that you're suggesting would require significant organisation..... and that's what's wrong with the whole conspiracy theory thing........there are usually far too many witnesses to what really happened for it to be real.

 

In any case, why should the Republicans have all of the vote-rigging to themselves.  Do you remember how George W Bush came to be President?  Not because he won the election but because of a line call by a judge after (if I recall correctly) some nifty footwork by Florida Governor Jeb Bush.

 

 

Gary

 

PS.......I'm supposed to be house-painting today but, given the choice between painting and making forum posts, keeping a paintbrush in one's hand is proving to be difficult.

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GaryD,

 

I have a suggestion for you...you worry about your country and how it's run and let Americans worry about ours.

 

From what you write, you are awfully quick to critisize what you personally have no experience with and know nothing about.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, you Aussies were in the same war as us during WWII and I know for a fact that if it had not been for America, you'd be speaking Japanese right now.

 

I suggest you stay with what you tout as knowing so much about, AQUAPONICS, and keep your opinions about America and Americans to yourself.

 

I do have to say that I am embarrassed by the number of Americans that are on you web site giving voice and debate to such as your poop talk about America.

 

Now let's see if you let this reply stay on the books.  I've kept a copy just in case.

 

Codi727

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Hi Codi,

 

I have a suggestion for you...you worry about your country and how it's run and let Americans worry about ours.

 

A couple of things.....we encourage sensible discussion about lots of things on this forum......and the US impacts the entire world (and that's an issue for many people) so that entitles people other than Americans to comment.  The parlous state of the US economy.....and the high risk game being played out now......impacts people from other places no less than US citizens.

 

From what you write, you are awfully quick to critisize what you personally have no experience with and know nothing about.

 

Read what I wrote......particularly the bit that reads "Don't misunderstand me.....I'm not taking any comfort from any of this.  I like Americans.  Next to the British, and New Zealanders, they're the closest thing to us in so many ways.  But I fear for the US and its people."

 

Also, if I remember correctly, you Aussies were in the same war as us during WWII and I know for a fact that if it had not been for America, you'd be speaking Japanese right now.

 

Your memory is selective.  While the US certainly played a deciding role in the war against the Japanese, let's not forget that our troops had already been fighting Hitler all over Europe for three years before the US got involved in WWII.  If the Allies had not been so engaged, you might be speaking German.  Something else that you don't seem to know is that Australia has stood alongside of the US in just about every war (and police action) since WWII......including Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

I suggest you stay with what you tout as knowing so much about, AQUAPONICS, and keep your opinions about America and Americans to yourself.

 

Aren't you being a tad discourteous?  In any case, where's your taste for freedom of speech?

 

I do have to say that I am embarrassed by the number of Americans that are on you web site giving voice and debate to such as your poop talk about America.

 

Don't be embarrassed......not all of your countrymen are as narrow-minded as you appear to be.  This forum has established a sound reputation for being able to canvass all manner of issues.....including social ones. 

 

Now let's see if you let this reply stay on the books.  I've kept a copy just in case.

 

Don't be concerned.....I'm not threatened by dissenting views about anything.  It's only by discussing those things that are important to us that we reach a better understanding of each other.  You shouldn't feel threatened by that.

 

Gary

Edited by GaryD (see edit history)
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GaryD,

 

I have a suggestion for you...you worry about your country and how it's run and let Americans worry about ours.

 

From what you write, you are awfully quick to critisize what you personally have no experience with and know nothing about.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, you Aussies were in the same war as us during WWII and I know for a fact that if it had not been for America, you'd be speaking Japanese right now.

 

I suggest you stay with what you tout as knowing so much about, AQUAPONICS, and keep your opinions about America and Americans to yourself.

 

I do have to say that I am embarrassed by the number of Americans that are on you web site giving voice and debate to such as your poop talk about America.

 

Now let's see if you let this reply stay on the books.  I've kept a copy just in case.

 

Codi727

 

 

Wow, what a first post. Don't have many issues with perpetuating stereotypes do you? Signed up just to troll the site...

 

As Gary said, we actually did OK even in the Paccific - stupidly we let the British run things for a bit and so Singapore and a few other incidents tarnished the record, but we didn't have to have our Govt run a con job on us to get us into the war either. And in fact Gary is more correct than you might realise with his comment about Americans speaking German - it was touch and go as to whether the US entered the war as a member of the Axis countries.

 

Certainly if Joe Kennedy and several other prominent types had gotten their way, it would have been a US/German/japan alliance against the rest of us.

 

And yes, the increasingly Fascist noises and laws coming from what was once the Land of the Free are of concern to everyone. The US is currently the only country intent on invading others and increasingly is using lies and black PR to do so. Anyone interested in the state of the world must watch the USofA with increasing caution - plus we've all seen the problems that happen when US corporateers and world banksters decide they'd like a chunk of the public money given to them free and clear - we've had several world financial crises starting in the US and affecting everyone.

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Let's keep things civil here please.

 

I enjoy a good discussion with people who have different viewpoints than mine.  I feel like, even if both people come away with the same stance/position/beliefs as they had before (most often the case), we still probably both learned something in the process of discussing or respectfully debating the subject.  That's really what it's all about anyway.  So, please approach these kinds of discussions with that in mind.

 

If people get nasty about things, then we'll just have to lock the thread, which would be a shame.

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Hi Kellen,

 

If people get nasty about things, then we'll just have to lock the thread, which would be a shame.

 

In light of our agreement with each other, my status is that of a member (rather than the owner of the forum)....but I do have a question.

 

Why does the discussion have to be the first casualty when someone misbehaves?  Why not sanction the offender and leave those who are not resorting to personal attacks to carry on?  

 

My concern is that by shutting down the thread we reward the offender who didn't want it to occur in the first place.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Gary

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There's a similar reaction in the real world too. I recall years ago, they banned heavy beer (as opposed to low alcohol or 'light' beer for those not in Australia) at the MCG because police had to deal with 60 people who got too drunk - 11 arrests IIRC. Sounds reasonable doesn't it? Can't have all those drunken hooligans spoiling everyone's day?

 

But there were 90,000 people there that day - 89,940 people were just fine with drinking the heavy stuff, but EVERYONE got punished because of those 60.

 

Got my vote for dealing with the miscreants rather than stopping conversations.

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GaryD,

 

I have a suggestion for you...you worry about your country and how it's run and let Americans worry about ours.

Codi727

 

If the worrys/thaughts (by Gary), were posted by a US- citizen would "the reasons" be legit by you ?

 

Hi,

skip trying to be the world's policeman.  It's time to go home and look after its own people.....and to rebuild the nation based on the noble ideas that brought it into being.

 

Gary

 

Seems to me, that you are in some sort of agreement ?

 

cheers

 

PS Shouldn't this thread be in the Lounge rather than the Notice board ?

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In addition our country has become so partisan and polarized partly IMHO because of particular pundits and politicians that fire up their bases creating discourse and hatred, but laugh all the way to the bank.

I like how Austrailia handled a shut down sometime ago. If i got it correctly they pretty much fired all their legislators?

Unfortunately gentleman i knew it was just a matter of time before someone came on and got offended because he or she didn't like what was being said. In our country we apparently can't discuss politics without it degrading into a verbsl fist fight because it's become so polarized here. Even normal otherwise well adjusted people I calls friends become screaming manaics when politics are discussed. The unsaid rule among my friends is political discussion is off limits.

My European relatives and other Europeans i have talked to are baffled why a poliicall discussion has to result in a meltdown.

Edited by Cecil (see edit history)
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As you can see from this thread, we allow emotion, and mostly negative emotion, to fuel our decisions about our policies. What I think is unfortunate, as evident by some posts right in this thread, is the demonization, or at least, a brushing off of the poor people.  Most poor folks in this country are working and stuck in an endless cycle.  The rhetoric about "being responsible personally" is just that.  It's more or less pontification, and using generalities to solve problems.  We seem to think we can use that to talk about politics.  Who doesn't exhibit some form of self responsibility?  Some have more than others.  We all make mistakes in our lives.  The bottom line is that just because a person has no money does not mean that they are poor because they want to be.  How can a person who can barely cover their next electric bill even worry about eating properly every day?  Try raising a small family in similar situations.  We on this forum are prime examples of just how difficult it truly is to be self reliant, working with backyard gardens, small livestock and aquaponics systems.  A man is not an island.

 

 

Aufin might be right that what I said is oversimplifying the situation.  I'm a small business owner and a software developer who got interested in farming.  I know about that mostly, and every now and then read up on issues that I'm interested in. Aufin, you said "Since when is personal responsibility, self reliance and not expecting the govt to give you everything considered radical?" I'm not really where you get that from, nor why you think I said that is not radical.  We're not in disagreement here.

 

I'll leave the debt argument alone.  I don't even know where to start.  Yes, it is pretty crazy situation.

 

You said: Yeah, maybe now we can see just how many "unessential" govt workers and programs we can do without.  You also fail to see that we're talking about real people, with real families and real bills that are now not at work.  They might get paid.  Some people are working right now for free who are considered essential employees. It's all up in the air. This isn't really that much different then working for a very large corporation when it comes to jobs.

 

You said: This is exactly how govt works. You didn't say this outright, but I hope you are not implying that what is happening now is how things should be, or a good example of how they should be.  This shutdown is not even close to an exemplary model of how any government should work.  It hurts people like you and me, and the middle class via economic means.

 

As for the shutting down of public places as you mentioned.  You put this directly on Obama it appears.  I don't know why you do that, but what makes you think the president is shutting down parks an things? That isn't even his job. There is a lot of FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) going around social media right now about stuff like this.  I read one that Obama used his personal money to keep a National Muslim museum open yesterday.  There was no such museum, and it turned out to be fake. http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/museum.asp.  There were plenty others.  This is a perfect example of marketing strategy and technique used to shift blame.  The thing is that this kind of PR work actually works on the people.  Go watch the movie "Thank You for Smoking" for some examples.  It's a really good movie, too.  I wouldn't worry much about the main stream news media, which I assume you already know.

 

You mentioned Reid and Obama not compromising.  Why would they?  They were elected and their major platform was health care reform? It passed into law.  I don't see that defunding that is even worthy of compromise at this point.

 

You mentioned that every business person you know is pretty much against this.  I'm a small business owner, and I am for it.  Maybe big business people are against it.

 

You mentioned why are many corporations cutting hours, and why do polls show most Americans against it. Some large corporations have made fuss about this.  I wonder what their health benefits were before.  Is it possible these companies are not very keen about providing health care in the first place?  I'd like to know the bigger picture here before I make a decision. Polls are hardly scientific collections of data, especially how they are conducted willy nilly.  Polls on mostly conservative websites are going to show.....just what they think.  Polls on mostlly liberal websites.....liberal opinion. Has anyone conducted a real survey?  If so, post it.  I'm generally curious.

 

Are you denying the fact that our healthcare system is so expensive and not the best?  How can you even argue that?  Perhaps people with the funds come here and go to the few establishments that work miracles, but these establishments are few and highly expensive.  Joe Schmoe can only even dream about those.  That isn't a health care system that provided for all of the people.

 

 

 

Gary,  Here is the scoop.  This entire reply is a huge oversimplification of the issues.

 

There are a group of radical right wing politicians that have slowly been elected into the Republican party, colloquially referred to as "tea party republicans" or "the tea party", with a somewhat vague reference to the Boston Tea Party event in 1773.  Our House of Representatives is Republication controlled, and our Senate is Democrat controlled.  The affordable care act, also known as Obamacare, has been president Obama's big running platform and together with a majority vote from both Democrats and Republicans, it passed into law. ....Late at night under a cloture rule when many senators were not present- a maneuver considered highly unetical by many.  It even was scrutinized by the U.S. Supreme Court, and was found to be constitutional. That's debatable, too.  Was found marginaly constitutional only on the grounds that the penalties are considered a tax.   Republicans have screamed and hollered over it, and probably have many amendments to it, but it still was signed into law.  Our issue is that our two party system is so very polarized at this time, with what seems, a large group of individuals that have been put into that party That party?  Which party are you referring to?  Seems Reid, Pelosi, etc are just as radical. with very radical points of view.  Since when is personal responsibility, self reliance and not expecting the govt to give you everything considered radical?

 

The issue is the Republicans would not agree to a budget without defunding the affordable care act for a year even though it has passed into law.  Budgets in the U.S. must pass the House of Representatives, then the Senate, then have the President sign off on it to make it official, or valid, or accepted.  The Democrat controlled Senate, of course, would not agree to this -- on the premise that the last couple of years would have been for absolutely nothing. For the "last couple of years", over four to be exact, the senate has neglected their constitutionally mandated duties..... to pass a budget.  The house has passed and presented many, the senate simply ignores them.    It isn't really a disagreement over a budget, Maybe not on the surface, but look deeper.  We are over 17 TRILLION dollars in debt.  Over 80 Trillion when you add in all the unfunded, off budget liabilities our govt. has accrued, but are not telling us about.  We don't need the additional burden of Obamacare.  ther an asshole move, closer to a fillibuster, but with far grater consequences. Yeah, maybe now we can see just how many "unessential" govt workers and programs we can do without.  Essentially this has already been through the ringer and is a bonafide law, set to be activated on day 1 of the new fiscal year.  My take on the issue is that it is a very reckless and dangerous stunt that is being pulled and is undermining how our government is supposed to work.  This is exactly how govt works.  Maybe not supposed to work, but still, constitutional.  The House has passed and presented to the senate many budget items to fund parts of the govt. to forestall a shutdown.  But, the Senate - Reid - has simply said No.  So, this is not just "radical right wing Republicans".  Reid won't compromise, Obama won't compromise.  The Left, Democrats, are being just as hard-headed and are using their authority to make things look just as bad as they possibly can in order to make their point......why shut down privately funded places that take absolutely NO govt dollars, but are merely sitting on a plot of govt property, using no govt employees or resources?  To Obama it's all or nothing.   Plus, the mainstream news media is complicit in the effort to make things look as bad as they possibly can.

 

Yes, I would agree that health care is sort of like running water, food, shelter and electricity and part of a civilized society.   A good discussion about how to pay for it should and apparently has been had.  It is a good step in the right direction. Maybe.  If it's so good,  why is our congress exempting themselves?  Why do we need to subsudize all the congresional staffers 75% of their cost?  Why are the labor unions (who originally supported Obama) now screaming for an exemption?  Why is there such a long list of major corporations petitioning for exemption?  Why are many, many businesses cutting workers from a 40 hour workweek to a 29 hour workweek?  Why do the polls show a majority of citizens against this trainwreck?  I guess quite a few people have finally had the opportunity to read what's in the bill and figured out that Obamacare is a monsterous intrusion into everyone's life, not to mention being 180 degrees out from what was promised - by Obama.  Every business person I know is very much against this.  The only people I know personally who are in favor of this are the ones who voted for Obama in the first place.   Let's not even get into how U.S. health care is *the most expensive* in the entire world, and is nowhere near the best.  Oh, really?  Why do so many come from other countries to our doctors and hospitals for treatment?  Our broadband internet connectivity is very similar...very expensive and not nearly the best.  We have problems with things like that it seems.  

 

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Cecil,

 

I don't know why it turns into fighting.  Maybe it is less about problem solving now and more about my team vs your team, my religion vs yours.  It has everything to do with people thinking they are righteous I think.  This doesn't solve problems.  Engineering is about problem solving.  We need to think like engineers.

 

 

In addition our country has become so partisan and polarized partly IMHO because of particular pundits and politicians that fire up their bases creating discourse and hatred, but laugh all the way to the bank.

I like how Austrailia handled a shut down sometime ago. If i got it correctly they pretty much fired all their legislators?

Unfortunately gentleman i knew it was just a matter of time before someone came on and got offended because he or she didn't like what was being said. In our country we apparently can't discuss politics without it degrading into a verbsl fist fight because it's become so polarized here. Even normal otherwise well adjusted people I calls friends become screaming manaics when politics are discussed. The unsaid rule among my friends is political discussion is off limits.

My European relatives and other Europeans i have talked to are baffled why a poliicall discussion has to result in a meltdown.

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Hi Cecil,

 

I like how Austrailia handled a shut down sometime ago. If i got it correctly they pretty much fired all their legislators?

 

That's the way I think it should be.....but it's not quite the way it works in practice.

 

We do, however, have what is known as a "double dissolution" procedure where, if a Government is blocked from passing legislation by a hostile Senate, it can petition the Governor-General to dissolve both Houses of Parliament......and force an election.

 

This procedure has been invoked on six occasions since Federation.

 

Gary

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Hi Cody,

 

I find it a little hard to not say anything after the tone of your first post....

 

I have some advise for you...

 

Why don't you go to the introductions section of this forum and introduce yourself, and tell us a bit about yourself first so we can get to know you...Then why don't you post on any of the build threads your system or even what you plan to build, if you do not have a system....Maybe give us five posts or so to allow us to get to know you before coming out all guns blazing like you have for your first post...

 

It's not too late...You can even introduce yourself and lets know what you are doing or plan to do now before anything else if you want...

 

Cheers.

Edited by bigdaddy (see edit history)

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OK, just for the peanut gallery, this will be my final post so you don't have to do like Obama when someone calls his hand on something and get your panties in a wad.

 

First off GaryD you started a thread about happenings in America that would draw in your American members because I can't believe that Aussies in general really care about what goes on here.  So you targeted the Americans on your forum in particular.

 

So let's begin on the points that peeed me off and a few since then.

 

 

 

What is the core issue here?   Is it really about Obamacare?  If so, isn't universal health care one hallmark of a civilised country?

You see, here's the problem Gary...you don't really know what the problem is that's causing so much uproar here in America so you pick a side to exploit, "OBAMACARE"  Then you basically insinuate that America is not a civilized because we didn't have or even want a universal health care system in our country where the government dictates who gets treatment for what and when if at all.

 

Canada has your wonderful health care system and people from there are coming to America to get treatments they are either denied in Canada or it takes too long to even see a doctor which in a large number of cases has resulted in the death of the afflicted individual.  Americans didn't want it when the Democats rammed it down our throats and we don't want it now.

 

 

 

The "haves" seem unwilling to acknowledge that the "have-nots" should be taken account of.

 

AHHhhh...The haves and the have nots.  Sounds like China, North Korea, Russia and all the other communist countries.  Here in America there is another class of people..the middle class.  I guess you could call them the middle haves a little.  They make up the working class of people in this country and they pay their taxes and strive toward that wonderland where the haves live and also do their best to not wind up where the have nots live.

 

I was born in 1943 and will be 71 years old my next birthday.  My father was a Corsair Fighter pilot in WWII in the South Pacific.  Maybe around your neck of the islands, I don't know.  He was killed 6 days before I was born.  My mother, an uneducated farm girl was widowed at the age of 23 and had no way of taking care of me so the day I was born, she laid me in my Grandmother's arms and left.

 

My Grandfather was Irish and my Grandmother was full blood Cherokee Indian (Native American) straight from the reservation in Oklahoma. Even though they owned (them and the bank) as small farm, they were the have nots and that's the way I grew up.

 

I might add here that I am not a Republican or Democrat...I'm an America.

 

I graduated high school and joined the US Navy at 18.  I won't elude to what my training was after bootcamp, however I participated in the Cuban Blockade and served two tours in Viet Nam.  When I got out of the Navy after almost 5 years, I was 23 and still a have not.  I graduated college with a double major in business and accounting without any help from anyone including the government.

 

Over the preceding years, with a tremendous amount of long hours and hard work, I became one of the haves to a mild degree.  I never was a Donald Trump and never desired to be but I did very well.  I retired in 1995 and thought I was set with my investment in place then Obama got into office.  My investment has deteriorated to virtually nothing.  So much so that I have had to go back to work.  My wife is not able to work and our only child at age 25 has had to move back in with us to survive.  I am once again a have not but I have never taken a dime of unemployment, welfare, food stamps or any kind of government assistance and I don't intend to because those who are the haves worked to get where they are and they don't owe me a thing.

 

But there are those have nots in America that make it their profession to get all they can in any way they can from the government and never work a day in their lives and never will.  Are those the have nots the ones the haves should be concerned with, the dead beats?

 

 

The country still seems uncomfortable that it has a black president

 

So tell me, has Aussie land had its first Aborigine President yet?  As for Obama...he had the chance to be the greatest President America has ever had in its entire history...and he blew it.  Practically the entire country was behind him and the promises he made...he has not kept the first one of his promises.  He could have been the one individual after Rev Martin Luther King that could have brought about a coming together of the races in America.  Instead, he has shown that he is a racist.  He even went so far as to put it into writing in one of his book where he stated that he hated his mother's race.  With the power he had behind him he could have brought America back to a healthy, productive country again but instead he has done everything he could (and still is) to make America a third world country.  America's credit rating was lowered under his presidency for the first time in history and our debt is piling up like manure in the barnyard and he wants to borrow more and spend more every day.  I don't have a problem with the fact that he's black.  I have problem with the fact that 1) he's a Muslim... 2) he's a socialist ...3) he is hell bent on destroying my country from the inside just as the Muslims said they would.

 

 

 

Has anybody considered that the reason that the US is in such a parlous financial state is not because of its social welfare programs but rather because it's been waging war almost continuously since 1941?  

 

 

Again with the same ole thing.  America has fought against spread of communism and other agressors around the world with very little thanks from those who they saved.  Would you feel more safe if America were to collaspe and China, North Korea or Russia became the defenders of the faith?

 

 

 

The more I read and see, the more I understand how the American Civil War happened. 

 

 

I doubt very much you know anything about the America Civil War or what actually started it.  You probably thing like most black Americans do that it was fought to free the slaves...wrong.  It had to do with big business and money in the North trying to force the people of the South to do business with them under their terms and when the cotton plantation owners started selling their cotton to France..the North decided they wouldn't stand for it...just big business and money as usual and as usual the little man is the one that paid the price on the battle fields.

 

 

 

I think it's time for the US to revisit the notion of democracy.......and to skip trying to be the world's policeman.

 

 

Again I pose the question, how safe would you feel.

 

 

 

Your memory is selective.  While the US certainly played a deciding role in the war against the Japanese, let's not forget that our troops had already been fighting Hitler all over Europe for three years before the US got involved in WWII.  If the Allies had not been so engaged, you might be speaking German.  Something else that you don't seem to know is that Australia has stood alongside of the US in just about every war (and police action) since WWII......including Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

 

No, my memory serves me quite well from the loss of a Father I never knew to seeing my best friend loose his life in Viet Nam.  I know all about WWII on both fronts and who was there and who wasn't.  As for Australia, I always wanted to live there and I was all set to move there when I got out of the Navy but family illness kept me in America and after my Grandparents died, I couldn't get myself to leave America.  Currently the only problem I have with Aussies is you.. My Grandmother use to have a sayng..."CLEAN AROUND YOUR OWN BACK DOOR BEFORE YOU START TELLING SOMEONE ELSE HOW TO CLEAN AROUND THEIRS"..!  I'm sure your country has enough problems of its own (and NO I don't keep up with them) to keep you occupied without trying to clean around the back door of America.

 

 

 

Don't be embarrassed......not all of your countrymen are as narrow-minded as you appear to be.  This forum has established a sound reputation for being able to canvass all manner of issues.....including social ones.

 

 

Again, starting a thread where you critisize America and pretend to know and understand what's going on in a country half way round the world...you are amazing.  You obviously beleive everything the Print and TV news media tells you and take it as gospel, but I'm here on the ground where it's happening and 90% of what you read in the paper and see on TV are lies.

 

Your thread was started to pull in your American members and keep them close to the fold on you site.  I'm surprised you havent's started a thread about TRAVON MARTIN and tried to paint Americans as racist on that front because George Zimmerman was found innocent.

 

As for the calls to ban me, it is of no consequence to me as I will not post on you forum again.  I called your hand on you comments and whether you or the members of your forum want to take notice or not is irrevelent to me.

 

You have a new member... Aufin from Lakeland, Fl. who I beleive has a handle on it so I leave the reins in his steady hands.

 

Have a nice life and stay down under...we have enough people like you in America already.

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