Moses

My current small test model

24 posts in this topic

Hello guys, it has been awhile since my last post. I promised that i would post pic of my aquaponic system when i fixed a better filter. 

My current one consist of:

1 plastic container used for 12 koi fish

1 plastic container for water bed

1 barrel for filter

wood frame to hold the lightings and to lift the filter tank and the water tank

pvc pipe for water flow

1 water pump

2 aeration devices

1 styrofoam to hold the netpots 

300-350 liters of water

the romanian lettuce is 2 weeks old ( i read online that it will take 75 100 days for it to fully mature since its not crisphead type ) and the germinated bak choy seed is just 3 days old. I also bought noy bai that i will start planting after the bak choy netpot is inserted into the hole.

the flow is pretty simple, the water pumps from the fish tank to the filter, the water swirls, fills from bottom up then there is pieces of filter cloth stopping solids from flowing into the water bed and from the water bed flow back to the fish tank.

the only problem i have now is the bubbles that are covering the whole surface of filter and fish tank, i read about it online and the only thing i get is the water is rough cause of the surface / water solid? I dont even understand what that mean. It wasnt there before i introduced the water bed and added 100 liters of water, but i doubt that was the cause. The  end of the pipe i used for the water to flow into the water bed and fish tank is T shaped socket so the top let the air flow in and fall together with the water. since i saw venturi style pipe flow i thought that could help with the DO level.

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An update on the bak choy and romanian lettuce.

The first picture is romanian, the stalk is very small compared to the leaf. 3 weeks old already. I really dont think this is normal. Root is also very short growing out of the net pot. Can someone advice me on this matter? 

Bakchoy is 6 days old, seems normal so far.

im using coco peat as the media. They seems to be growing toward the pink/purple led light opposed to the red/blue led strip light above. I am considering buying grow light with higher intensity for red and blue.

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Hi Moses,

I just replied to DPatel's thread, re: Indoor Systems.

Much of those comments apply to your system.

The bubbles you have are from excess proteins from shed fish slime and bio waste.
10 koi in that volume of water will be problematic.

Your plant issues appear to be light intensity related, they are to far away from the plants, and the brightest area of light is from the side, hence them stretching towards the light.

My last observation is the lights themselves.
Are they just simple (random) red & blue led's or are they plant specific colour spectrums ?
Blues ought be int the 465-485nm - Reds ought be in the 620-630nm spectrums.

Cheers
Joe

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30 minutes ago, Toga said:

Hi Moses,

I just replied to DPatel's thread, re: Indoor Systems.

Much of those comments apply to your system.

The bubbles you have are from excess proteins from shed fish slime and bio waste.
10 koi in that volume of water will be problematic.

Your plant issues appear to be light intensity related, they are to far away from the plants, and the brightest area of light is from the side, hence them stretching towards the light.

My last observation is the lights themselves.
Are they just simple (random) red & blue led's or are they plant specific colour spectrums ?
Blues ought be int the 465-485nm - Reds ought be in the 620-630nm spectrums.

Cheers
Joe

thank you for the response Mr.Joe, I have no means to test the spectrum nor local store knows what LED spectrum they are selling but i have ordered Grow Lights with proper spectrum spec. will post them once they have arrive and installed. the lights from the side are indigo colored(?) i think.

below are the stores specs and pics :


40 LED Grow 30W E27AC 85~265V 30 Watt
Item: E27 LED Grow Light
Light Source: 40pcs SMD 5730 Chips
Lamp Beads Arranged: 22Red+12Blue+2White+2IR+2UV
Beam Angle: 180 degree
Body Temperature: 60C
LED Working temperature: 65C
Source Life: 50,000 hours
Input Voltage: AC85V-265V
coverage area : 2.5~5m2
Weight: 75g
Dimension: 58mm*H72mm

 

0.5M SMD5630/5730 Blue Strip Grow Light led grow light for grow box hydroponics system
Product Description:
Superbright 5630/5730 SMD LED, high intensity and reliability.
36 SMD LEDs pcs
Size: 1.2cm x 50cm
Emitting Color: blue
Length: 0.5cm
Protection Rate Bare Board Non-waterproof
Working Voltage: 12VDC
LED Quantity: 72leds/m
Viewing Angle : 120
Wattage: 12W/meter
Wavelength: ; Blue: 450-465nm

above are the specs of the grow lights, i am adding extra blue lights as mine are green leaf plants, not flowering one. i have lights of such wattage is intense enough for the plant.

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blue lights strip.jpg

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Hi Moses,

The second last spec gives a clue - "Wattage: 12W/meter"

I believe 'successful' setups use closer to 60-80w/meter.

I found some specs for a light I designed 6-8 years ago using dedicated spectrum led's designed to light 1.5meters/sq. 
Blue 465-485nm - Cree XP-E 3W x 10 led's
Red 620-630nm - Cree XP-E 3W x 24 led's
Deep Red 660nm - Philips Rebel ES 3W x 6 led's
White 5000-8300k - Cree XP-G 3W Cool White x 6 led's
White 2600-3700k - Cree XP-G 3W Warm White x 6 led's
Total    52 led's = 156w

You may need several of those lights.

Cheers
Joe

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Mr.Joe im not sure i can find the same brand of Cree here but i have found website that sells LED chip like yours as well. but they dont post the colour spectrum i think maybe i can ask them about it. is there such LED lights that have full spectrum but only 1 light chip?

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Hi Moses,

Those led chips were for a do-it-yourself project lighting system and required a bit of wiring and other components.

The main purpose I posted those details was a guide for, A) Spectrum of led's and B) Intensity required of led's per meter.
That is a proven ratio of required spectrums of light, and intensity, to cover 1 square meter.

Full spectrum leds are white leds, as listed above.
They can range from 1000k-20,000 kelvin.. and all look "white".
With each of the 4 types of "white" covering several different ratio's of "specific spectrum of colours".

Commercial units often have a couple "white" led's to help fill blank areas not covered by the "specific spectrum" led's.

Cheers
Joe

Here is a commercial example of what I would consider to be a minimum for your grow area....
Serious growers use 500w, 800w or 1000w units.

LED 150W Grow Light UFO Full Spectrum Hydroponic Plant Veg Flower Lighting Lamp
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Description:

*Full Spectrum 9 Bands Ratio to provide the full energy what plants need. These Led Growing Lights make vegetable and plants fast growth - big blooms, buds and flowers

*Professional color proportion-Perfect 9 bands spectrum(IR & UV included) 

*Full Spectrum Red (620-630nm;650-660nm); Blue(440-450nm;450-460nm); Orange(610-615nm);Yellow (580nm) IR(730nm); UV(410nm);White(3500K;12000K)

*With low power consumption, high luminous efficiency, our LED plant light generates the least amount of heat in a long time for safety. And prevents any damage to your Garden Plants and keep your temperatures down perfectly.

*Ideal for all phases of plant growth, can be used in house garden, pot culture, garden, sowing, breeding, farm, flower exhibition, bonsai, garden, green house, sowing,breeding, farm, greenhouse cultivation, water soluble breeding, greenhouse cultivation, pipeline cultivation and so on.

Specification: 

-Item type: led grow lights 

-LED Quantiy: 50pcs*3W Epileds LEDs(37 Red+7 Blue+2 white+2 Yellow+2 Orange+1 IR+1 UV)

-Wattage: 150W 

-Voltage:AC85-265V 

-Material: Aluminum and Iron housing, glass lens

-Size: approx 175*60mm/7inch*2.3inch,150cm/59inch Cable Length

-Lifespan: >50,000hours 

-Working environment : -20~40℃,45%~95%RH

-Color Ratio: Full Spectrum Red (620-630nm;650-660nm); Blue(440-450nm;450-460nm); Orange(610-615nm);Yellow (580nm) IR(730nm); UV(410nm); White(3500K;12000K)

-Certified by CE,ROHs

Application:

-Only for indoor and greenhouse use,not waterproof

-Suitable for growing flower,fruit,vegetable commercial crop etc

-Widely used in greenhouse,hydroponics,horticulture,potted plants, pipeline cultivation,tissue culture,indoor plants growing

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Mr.Joe can you give me link so that i can learn about grow lights? Grow light seems to be the most part that i cant understand because most i read doesnt explain much detail into grow light like you does, i am still confused how is "white light" is considered full spectrum that covers red blue and other colors, also i have found supplier that sells diy lights, but it seems i still havent found store that provide assembled grow lights like the one you just posted, other than the diy. Is there any link also to learn about diy lights assembly?

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Hi Moses,

The easiest most natural explanation is to look at a rainbow.

When the "white" light of the sun passes through rain, the water drops break (refract) the "white" light into separate spectrums... thus the colours of a rainbow appears.
When you mix all the colours of the rainbow, you get white.

 

 

LED's are the first light source that can be manufactured to reproduce a very specific 'spectrum' of colour.
Colour spectrum is measured in "Nanometers".

Color Wavelength    
violet 380–450 nm    
blue 450–495 nm    
green 495–570 nm    
yellow 570–590 nm    
orange 590–620 nm    
red 620–750 nm
       
       
       
       
       
       
   

Light spectrum can be very complicated, much like water chemistry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_spectrum

The light you have selected would be suitable in my opinion, but it is not intense enough.
You may need 4-6 of those lights for the grow area you have.

Cheers
Joe

stock-photo-visible-light-with-wave-length-difference-between-spectra-colors-which-give-different-properties-514067863.jpg

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You can get inexpensive T5 Flo. lamps  for your setup, check them out, they are readily available. You still have to make sure that you have the wattage though, make sure its enough.

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Hi Jake,

T5's wont cut the mustard.
They would need to be 3-5 times the wattage of led's.
IE: 50w of led's is similar light output to 150 watts of T5.

Cheers
Joe

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Balance the cost between LEDs and T5s.  In our stores here the LEDs price out higher then the T5s.

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Thanks Mr.Joe, i have read your article and several others, most seems to suggest that OLED/LED lights are better than others type of light due to :

1. Better capability in producing specific spectrum according to Chlo-a and Chlo-b PAS.

2. Doesnt require high wattage to give proper lumens to the plants

3. Last longer and doesnt really need to be maintained

4. Doesnt burn the plants and rise the room temprature thus needing cooling means extra cost

what you have said is true also regarding the required wattage. Most suggest 60watt to 150watt per square meter.

however i still have two things that i am not quite sure how im suppose to do.

1. One of the article that i read suggest that each plants require different light intensity and some kind of plant like lettuce do better when the gap between the plant and the light is 30cm away.

2. The plant needs down time after 18 hours of light time, meaning we should turn the light off after 18 hour and turn it on again after 4 hour so each day we need only give lights for about 18 hour.

please tell me your opinion.

Also the light that i ordered has arrived as shown in the picture below. The middle one is 30 watt and the left and right one are both 3 watt blue lights, 3 led bulb per light. Been using for days and the plant stalk seems to be thicker and stronger, leaf are growing faster. However some youtube video suggested that it should be replanted as it is highly unlikely the plant will grow / mature healthly in term of shape. I have ordered 1 more 30 watt light lile the middle one, so i think this grow bed should have enough lights already.

i have also seen some people used aluminium foil behind and the sides of the grow bed so the light refract back to the middle giving it maximum exposure thus no waste. What do you think about this method, is it worth a try? Since i dont have means to measure how much lumens is exposed to the plant already, if it is enough then adding it is pointless, the plant wont need extra lights.

(lots of bak choy died due to lack of lights)

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Mr. Jack Levi, i dont think i can buy T5 here, also is it fluorescent lights?

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Yes, the T5's are the best Flo. grow lights, they are much larger in dia then any of the others.  I have had good experience using them. They might be able to be ordered from a dealer. Even here I have gotten better prices buying them in a box, the size I got had ten lamps in a box. Good luck.

Jake

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Posted (edited)

Hi Jake,

With respect, you are incorrect.
T5's are the smallest diameter of the old style florescent globes.
http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/nlpip/lightingAnswers/lat5/pc1.asp

Although you can get T5 globes in "red" "blue" "green" and "white", they do not come close to the spectrum accuracy of led's.
T5's are great for small aquariums and general home use, but in my opinion, that is where they stop.

Hi Moses,

1) In most instances the distance between the light and the crop is very small, yes 30cm or there abouts.
The rule of thumb is if the outer margins of the leaves begin to curl / burn... then increase the distance by 5cm-10cm.

2) Yes, plants do need a 'night' period also. Lighting periods of 18 hours on / 6 hours off is not uncommon.

3) Yes, seedlings that have a poor start are less likely to thrive to maximum potential.
However, I use to have access to as many 'poor quality', 'sparse' or 'leggy' seedlings as I wanted from a local nursery.
They still grew, and produced eatable food. *EDIT*... in my outdoor system *End Edit*

4) Again, Yes. Aluminum foil will reflect more light back onto the plants and direct some of it to lower leaves that may be in shadows from leaves above.
With indoor growing, every watt of light produced should be directed on to the plants.
If those new lights equal 36watts in total, in your picture ... an educated guess would suggest that perhaps 10% - 15% of the light produced is shining on the wall... that is 3.6watts wasted.

With indoor growing, you can never have too much light.

Cheers
Joe

Edited by Toga
Edit noted in text (see edit history)
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Hi again Moses,

An important fact I forgot to mention that we need to keep in mind when trying to reproduce sunlight indoors, is that the sun lights the earth at the rate of 1000watts per square meter.

So even if you increase the lighting with another 2 x 30w globes... you are still 10x under the light intensity of the sun.

This is why having the correct 'spectrums' of light is paramount.. and utilising every watt produced is just as important.

Growing food indoors is not impossible, but it is not as simple as putting a light over plants.

Cheers
Joe

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Keep it up, Toga.  I'm learning more about lighting with every post that you make.  I would really like to build a grow room...with the ability to control every aspect of plant production...but the power (and heat) associated with HID and MH lights has been an issue...and I've found some of the claims around LED lights (not to mention the cost) a bit intimidating.

What's your view of a hybrid set up...where the grow room functions as a greenhouse during the day and, at night, it gets closed up and the lights come on for a period?  Feel free to take this discussion to its own topic if you want?

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Hi Gary,

Yes, initial cost as well as ongoing power costs and heat production are main areas of concern with various lighting types.
The other main areas are O2 and CO2 exchange, and humidity within a contained grow room.

I have read a fair bit about commercial nursery experiments supplementing daylight with specific types of lighting solutions... both, during the full sun of day, and at night.
I agree, well worth another thread... i'll hunt some info up and post later tonight.

Cheers
Joe

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Mr. Joe, with regards to excessive lights for plant, i read that plant will have a certain light saturation point where the amount of lights produced exceeded the amount of how much the plant need, few articles say that it is 500 micromoles, like this one:

http://www.col-center.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/A-Good-Straightforward-Guide-to-LED-Grow-Lights.pdf

 

alternatively i have posted screen shot of the section. 

 

There is also an article that has lots of calculation that seemed like gibberish to me, maybe you can see whether it is right or not.

http://www.mdpi.com/1996-1944/8/8/5240/pdf

there is also information using chart to compare the spectrum pf different kinds of light

 

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Hi Moses,

I have never professed to being an academic expert in any field, though have had great interest and experience in many.

Thanks for this info and article.
It is exactly the type of material I have referenced over the years of my life's learning experiences.

As you have pointed out, technically, Yes, it is possible to have too much light, for any given requirement of any particular species.

In practice, more often then not, for home indoor purposes, I would suggest that maximum saturation of light is rarely an issue.
I would go as far as to suggest that 90% of failed or poor indoor vegetable crops are due to insufficient quality and quantity of light.

How we deal with these failed or poor indoor crops, in regard to lighting, will continue to develop as technology advances.

Check out this picture (posted in another thread), and combine the info and article you linked.
The picture goes a long to way explaining; led ratio and layout per square meter, the number of leds would indicate to me they are perhaps only 1-3 watt each, which in line with required lighting periods (saturation), that would dictate (allow) the leds to be only 10-12 inchs above the crop.

The same principal applies if you were to start with a 1000watt High Pressure Sodium light to grow 20 lettuce.
They would explode in size very rapidly, but I suggest they would then bolt to seed before they were dense - full size, crop lettuce.
This is standard nature for outdoor lettuce here in mid summer... the over saturation of sun light stresses the biological clock and the result is the plants immediate instinct to reproduce before it dies... bolting to seed.

Cheers
Joe

Philips-Urban-Garden-2.jpg

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That is a lot of led bulb, seems to be each line is only for 3 or for lettuce, 5 straight line of led bulb for a square meter?

it seems i need to add more light, 50 watts seems to be not enough for a square meter. The plant is not being stimulated enough, although they start growing upright already. I think what you said is true Mr.Joe, too much light and few article i read suggest heat stimulate the lettuce to produce seed too quickly.

i will add more light via DIY grow light, after I successfully done it, will post more pict. 

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Hi Moses,

fyi, T5 florescent are the most used lights in Indonesia.

I wonder, why do you need artificial light while you on top of the equator? as this guaranties sufficient light the whole year.

Going to be hard to beat the sun, and electricity is quite expensive in indo.

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