Toga

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    Tweed Coast Hinterland - Australia
  1. Hi DrCoffee, Yes, there is much that can go wrong. Start a new post in the systems sections about your setup. Tell us what has worked for you, and what has not. The more details, water tests etc you provide, the more assistance members will be able to offer. Dont forget to add some pictures, they can tell us 1000 words each. Cheers Toga
  2. Hi, Lets look at some ERW Rice Culture Trials. Conducted by Ida Agriculture, transplantation of the "Electrolysed Water Farming" in Kanagawa Prefecture was in full swing in the month of May 2016. In rice farming, one of the most important processes is the rice seed disinfection. For the cleaning and disinfecting of the rice seeds, acidic electrolysed water was used. A "Designated Harmless Agricultural Chemical" approved by the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and Ministry of the Environment of Japan, for its sterilising power and its harmless effects on the human body and the environment. Although the height of transplanting season is in May, Ido Agriculture began transplanting on April 10 (nearly a month earlier than the rice paddy using agricultural chemicals), and they will continue until the beginning of July. The father and son team, Toshihiro and Tetsuya Ido, rushed about the wide paddy fields working hard at transplantation. To find out about the condition of the first set of seedlings after 40 days, I visited the site in Late May. All of the seedlings in the paddy reserved for regular observation (Paddy A), grew to around 30cm tall. Since these seedlings were raised to around 12cm in a greenhouse seedbed before transplanting, it would mean that the rice seedlings grew 20cm in approximately 40 days. It seems they are growing steadily and with out any issues. In the other farmer's paddy, which is using agricultural chemicals (Paddy B), the seedlings transplanted during the Japanese holidays in early May were also observed to be growing taller. However, it is the distance between each seedling which is particularly interesting. It was obvious that Paddy A was much more sparsely planted than Paddy B. This indicates that more were able to be planted in Paddy B, because the seedlings were placed closer together. I was told that, although it is too early to tell now, as the plants grow thicker, the difference in the "fullness" of the 2 paddies will become evident. Also, the widely spaced and more sparsely planted Paddy A will grow to be more abundant than the closely spaced Paddy B. Unlike rice seeds disinfected with agrochemicals, there was no damage found in the rice seeds disinfected with electrolysed water. Because of this, the seedlings will be able to grow into strong rice plants. We shall see the proof of this claim in 2 month's time. The paddies cultivated by Ido Agriculture are located on the outskirts of Takamatsu City, Kagawa. Although this year's increased rainfall and lack of sun caused some unease among the local farmers, the high temperatures, and humidity brought on by the end of the rainy season spurred on the growth of the rice plants, assisting in making up the leeway. This climate change not only boosted the growth of the rice plants but also the weeds in the paddies. When observing Paddy B, in which agrochemicals are being used, weeds are no where to be found. On the other hand, Paddy A, using only electrolysed water is abundant with weeds, as it does not contain any types of chemicals (weed killer). This can be considered more proof of the safety of electrolysed water farming. During this visit, I decided to pay closer attention to the stems and roots of the plants in each paddy. Around twenty stems were collected from Paddy A, while forty or so stems were collected from Paddy B, presenting a major difference between the paddies. Sparsely planted Paddy A does not require the use of chemicals, as its well-ventilated environment helps to control the spread of harmful insects. A further look into both paddies shows that the number of roots is greater in Paddy A than in Paddy B. Much more effort was needed to pull out the rice plants from Paddy A. Both facts provide evidence that the plants in Paddy A are firmly rooted, creating a strong foundation for the plants' growth. When comparing the height of the plants in the paddies, the plants in Paddy B were found to be slightly taller. The growth of the plants in Paddy A were intentionally suppressed by suspending the irrigation process and draining out the paddy for a selected period of time in order to reduce damage caused by wind. If everything goes according to plan, the first harvest arrives in mid-August. Although it may almost seem a bit trite to say, we are experiencing abnormal weather lately. Up until the end of July, fine weather continued on with a blazing sun and rising temperatures. After the Bon Holidays (July 13-16), however, the weather became unstable, as sunshine was rarely seen and long spells of rain, severe storms and typhoons hit the islands of Japan. Thanks to clear skies preceding the Bon Holidays, we had been reaping slightly more than the past years' harvests, but now the situation has turned cloudy. Due to the unusually inclement weather, the harvest has been running behind schedule. When I visited the farms in Kagawa Prefecture at the end of September, the rice plants in most of the paddies still remained green and had yet to turn golden. This was also the case for rice paddies owned by Ido Agriculture, both in the ERW trial paddies, which use electrolysed water, and in the normal rice paddies using agricultural chemicals. This is not to say that none of the crops were able to be harvested. A portion of the normal rice paddies has already been harvested and when compared to the crops from the ERW paddies which were harvested in August, there does not seem to be any differences in size. The biggest difference was that the process of weeding, which was indispensable during the harvesting of the ERW rice, reported in last month's issue, was unnecessary in the harvest of the normal paddies. This time and effort consuming task can be eliminated as there are no weeds found in normal rice paddies. However, what should not be ignored is the fact that this “efficiency” is achieved only by taking the great risk of using agricultural chemicals. I would also like to add that during this visit, I was amazed to discover the hidden powers of rice plants. From the stubbles in one of Ido Agriculture's paddies harvested in August, new stalks of rice plants were growing tall producing a second crop in the same paddy. As double cropping is not commonly practiced in Japan, I was surprised to witness the amazing potential the rice plants possessed. The final stage of harvesting has finally arrived in the rice fields of Ido Agriculture. The ERW paddy using electrolysed water (photo 1) and normal paddy using agrochemicals (photo 2) were compared just before harvesting. When viewing the photos below, the difference is quite apparent, as the "weeds” which are abundant in Paddy 1 (tall plants called millets) are not found in Paddy 2. No weeds are able to grow in the normal paddy, as large amounts of pesticides and chemical fertilisers are used. The ERW paddy, filled with weeds, proves how safe and reliable electrolysed rice farming is. The safety of electrolysed rice farming has also been proven by science. The rice harvested in September underwent a series of testing at the Environmental Research Centre (Ibaraki Prefecture) and has received an all clear in 250 items of agricultural chemicals, including DDT, as they were “undetected" during testing (photo 3). Electrolysed water rice farming is free of pesticide residue that is an advanced farming system is in line with the future standard of agroecology. After the harvest, Ido Agriculture uses a special machine to hull the rice, separating it into brown rice and husk. When it has been screened for quality and is rid of waste and other foreign substances, it is put through drying process, reducing the moisture level to approximately 15%. Then, the brown rice is packed in one-ton bags and is sent to the milling and packaging company. The milling and packaging company, Kuriya (Kagawa Prefecture), is a long established company that has been in business for 134 years. The ERW Rice is milled, screened, weighed, packaged and vacuum-sealed there before reaching the consumers. In fact, Kuriya is so thorough in their sanitation management that they also use the electrolysed water in the process of sanitising and disinfecting the facility (photo 4). This new organic ERW Rice is said be available for sale around the world starting mid 2017. ... and for the record - No, I have not seen any ERW Rice available here in Australia yet... but I am keen to try some ! Cheers Toga
  3. Hi Ravnis, Hi all, 7 years ago there was much less info available, but even back then, I was reading info that compelled me to investigate further. Hehe... I could copy my above comment here as well... I need take caution here because this post is not about me promoting or selling products that I have researched for 7 years... but by the very nature of the topic, it is a very specialised scientific niche. The difference between a scam product and a medical, commercial or industrial grade product is; component & build quality AND scientifically verifiable results... perhaps it is best to say; There are innovators and then there are imitators. --------------------------------------- So... here is a little more about ERW. Water = H2O /or 2 molecules of Hydrogen and 1 molecule of Oxygen Hydrogen has 2 ions, 1 positive charged and 1 negative charged. These natural (and variable) electrical charges are measured in "Millivolts" (mV3) ERW 'super charges' these Hydrogen Ions and concentrates the "H+" charged ions together and the "H-" charged ions together. A quick (but important) side detour... as we are aware, water has another property; pH /or "Power of Hydrogen" pH has a scale of 0.0pH - 14.0pH The process of electrolysis separates these 2 charged hydrogen concentrations into a "H+" (acidic solution) and into a "H-" (alkaline solution) By splitting and separating these "2 differently charged hydrogen solutions"... we are also splitting and separating "2 different pH solutions". This "splitting of 2 different pH concentrations" must and will always have a combined total of 14.0pH... regardless of their individual electrical charges, which can very. What this simply means is: You put in 1 water source, and get 2 water types out simultaneously ... ie: 1.5pH from one hose and 12.5pH from another hose... *Edit Added ( 1.5 + 12.5 = 14.0 )* 2.0pH / 12pH ( = 14.0) 2.5pH / 11.5pH ( = 14.0) 3.0pH / 11.0pH ( = 14.0) 3.5pH / 10.5pH ( = 14.0) 4.0pH / 10.0pH ( = 14.0) 4.5pH / 9.5pH ( = 14.0) 5.0pH / 9.0pH ( = 14.0) 5.5pH / 8.5pH ( = 14.0) 6.0pH / 8.0pH ( = 14.0) 6.5pH / 7.5pH ( = 14.0) 7.0pH / 7.0pH ( = 14.0) That is the simple part... the complexity ( and science - and history ) begins when we start discussing the variable 'Millivolt' charges, and combining them at various different pH levels. Acidic water that is produced by electrolysis is called "Hypochlorous Acid". Wiki describes Hypochlorous Acid as: Hypochlorous acid (HClO) is a weak acid that forms when chlorine dissolves in water, and itself partially dissociates, forming hypochlorite, ClO−. HClO and ClO− are oxidizers, and the primary disinfection agents of chlorine solutions.[2] HClO cannot be isolated from these solutions due to rapid equilibration with its precursor. Sodium hypochlorite (NaClO) and calcium hypochlorite (Ca(ClO)2), are bleaches, deodorants, and disinfectants. Hypochlorous acid is also used for wastewater treatment. It is used as an oxidizing and a disinfectant agent. It is preferred in the water treatment industry because of the convenience of storage, transport, and use. Apart from this, cost-effectiveness and non-toxicity to humans and animals are factors that contribute to its increased use. Furthermore, it is an effective microbicide, particularly against waterborne pathogens. In your commonly bought from shopping centre bleach - Hypochlorous Acid is often up to 85% of the volume. (ie: 1ltr of bleach = 850ml H+ water) Strong acidic solutions will have a positive ORP reading of +900 to + 1400 mV3 (bleach = <+900mV3) When producing strong Hypochlorous acid you are also simultaneously producing what is (sometimes) referred to as "Cathodic Water". The resultant product is a solution of sodium hydroxide (NaOH) with a pH of 11-13.8 Strong alkaline solutions will have a negative ORP reading of -950 to -1400 mV3 due to the dissolved hydrogen gas. (alkali cleaners = <-1000mV3) This strong alkaline water is extensvely used in industry for cleansing, rinsing, disinfecting, lipid extraction etc. It can readily saponify oils, making it a useful washing agent for greasy or oily areas. This also has the ability to extract and reduce the pesticides on produce by soaking the vegetables. So for those that have never heard of Electrolysis of Water... it has been a foundation tool of almost every industry sector for a century. Cheers Toga
  4. Hello Mohamed, Thanks for the video update. Seeding into gravel is always problematic in terms of germination, survival & growth. Some do ok, some dont. Then you have transplanting seedlings... same thing, some do ok, and some dont. Practice and experiment to find what works best for you. I note the pond water appears slightly clearer, this is good... as Willroy and I have mentioned, this algae will starve the grow beds. As your grow beds mature, and more plants start growing, they will increase capacity and mineral content. On another point of comment, your new water timing. I feel that even in your winter that 3 hours off is to long... this is one reason why transplanted seedlings go wilting. Common pump timing is 15mins ON - 45mins OFF. Also is better for the fish to have a more regular circulation. Additionally, I noted that some grow beds were full of water when sitting and water pump timer is off. This is very bad ! This can create toxic conditions ! ... and... Can create disease in plant roots ! Grow beds must drain fully and must never stand full of water. All up, good work my friend. Greens are starting to grow and pond looks a little clearer. It takes time to learn about so many different things... and how they work and act with each other. Cheers Toga
  5. Hi Ande, I get that link quoted to me several times a year. My response always is... for a retired scientist, he readily relies on a very non-scientific conclusion of "None of these papers is very convincing to me".. I then follow up by asking, If ERW is bogus pseudoscience, why has it been employed extensively in dozens of niche industry uses for decades ? I then say, for those that want to read 'real science'... have a look at; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=ERW (180+ ERW scientific studies) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28182635?fbclid=IwAR3TsoGLvhlyprZ4BpgOfB1uHGH9K-8o4Bz-BjVXIMQ5tIoogOgXnl1flyw https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pubmed/24490735-hypochlorous-acid-as-a-precursor-of-free-radicals-in-living-systems/?from_term=Hypochlorous+Acid&from_pos=5&fbclid=IwAR1nO68vGSlRpUz-tgwsRaiGZS-x73OVoqZa4kK4KRHhihLArspyNVnGk9g https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29030026/?i=4&from=electrolyzed+reduced+water&fbclid=IwAR0234Bm1Xwx6bjJS6az-KEWJ90iOnhTDaxvUDzRjl8D8egXlkkvMRIBdMo https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28932120?fbclid=IwAR01nQBG2NMzky_2jSxUG7bJG4AkVp_kO39mXBiJnEnj8LUpblnZMHwKhyc https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22420563/?fbclid=IwAR1BmkiHco_LT2IFxH4wDhiZXPI5DnweolWmrbtTNLxn39J_AwX9Oj3glN8 Also have a look at; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=molecular+hydrogen (168,000+ Molecular Hydrogen scientific studies) Often massive opposition has either; a) An undeclared conflict of interest, or b) A financial interest of conflict, or c) A unknown quantity of ignorance, lack of knowledge or experience I have just received another recently completed scientific study, direct from the Dr / Scientist titled "Scientific Study Results on the Benefits of ERW in Living Tissue Culture and in Living Human Volunteers". I love this quotes from Gary's signature: "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer Cheers Toga
  6. Hello Mohamed, Does your friend do aquaponics... or only fish ? The reason I ask is for many complex reasons, but I'll try to keep it simple; Adding a shade roof - Yes, absolutely. Less direct sun on the water = lower algae growth in pond Adding a Swirl Filter (SF) - Yes, you can... and it will help... if you are finding fry in the growbeds/sumps, they will also be in any new swirl filter. The issues I see are that SF are; a) Sized (small, medium - huge) according to water flow & retention time, and b) Pumps are best placed AFTER a SF. The benefits of a well designed SF is that: a) removes solid wastes from the fish pond, and b) greatly reduces any solid waste being pumped into the grow beds, thus reducing maintenance. You size pond may need 2 swirl filters. Adding ceramic filtration - In my opinion, This is good, and not so good - again for many reasons. One main reason your fish are alive & breeding and the pond is green is because, technically, the pond is mature.... BUT the issue is that the complete Nitrogen cycle (waste nutrient use) is contained within the pond... all/most fish waste nutrients are being consumed by the algae. In my view, for aquaponics, ceramic filtration - due to high surface area & bacterial growth, could potentially do to much filtering, leaving low/no levels of fish waste nutrients for your plants to grow. For fish only systems - Yes, absolutely. Ceramic filtration plus swirl filter will offer great results. The idea of aquaponics is that the Growing Plants ARE the final stages of Nitrogen Cycle balance and management.. When you add a shade roof - the algae will reduce somewhat... When you add swirl filters - the algae will reduce even more... When you have healthy growing plants - the algae will reduce to be very, very little. My best advice at this stage is - Go Slowly. Do a lot more research about filters before you make decisions and spend $$$. Cheers Toga
  7. Hi Ande, They look awesome ! They must keep fresh ok ?, with the Christmas still 4 weeks away. Without your description, they look like giant pancakes for the Norsemen Cheers Joe
  8. Hi Joe, Hi all, As a child, I too was fascinated by bubbles in water... of a slightly different nature, for me it was Siamese Fighting Fish - 'Bubble Nests'. That fascination saw me breeding Betta's by my 10th birthday... nothing has changed in 45yrs since By way of further introduction / explanation of the huge scope of benefits of ERW, I'll start with a little personal history of how I was introduced to electrolysis of water. My 1st time deep interest in electrolysis & water came about due to my kidney cancer diagnosis, subsequent removal of 50% of each, and further diagnosis of Polycystic Kidney Disease. My long time friend and personal Dr of 35yrs told me of the benefits of electrolysied reduced water (ERW), of the free hydrogen that is a super antioxidant for hydration (drinking & 100's of cooking uses), of the anti-bacterial/fungal/microbal properties (chemical free kitchen/home sanitising & cleaning), of the many pH varieties, their many electrical charges and properties, of the 100's of internal and external human applications (all of which have been extensively suppressed for 70yrs), of the extraordinary chemical properties and potentials (extensively used in industry)... many of which have gone either unstudied or have had the technology suppressed for 80 - 100 years. We bought a medical grade unit that is used in Japanese hospitals, for our home 7 years ago, solely to assist my recovery, my wifes TBI, and generally improve our families health. I consider it to be one of several solid reasons I am still here today. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Notice & Disclaimer* I am an international distributor of this medical grade electrolysis unit. If you are interested to learn more about this unit, send me a message or visit my website - https://www.kangenwateroz.com/ The content of this post, and link to my website, have been approved by APN Owner & APN Administrator & Mod Team -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK, with that additional little side track of history and information said ... lets kick start (and stay on) the topic of this thread - Electrolysis in Aquaculture & Agriculture I have since gone on to read/study more about the potential uses of ERW in aquaculture and agriculture. There are many so called 'secret' trials out there. Seeing that I own a medical grade ERW unit, and have interest in 'playing' with almost everything I was reading about.... It was only a natural progression for me to setup a tiny balcony garden and AP system that exclusively uses ERW. My setup uses many different qualities of ERW, for many different purposes, and has been doing so for 2 years now. (Yes, I know... I need to do an 'aquaponics systems' thread about it) As brief examples, I use: ERW 2.5pH for sterilizing, disinfecting and sanitising nft pipes, pots, nets, clay balls, hands, quarantine foot/shoe baths... its also brilliant for energising seed germination - ERW 4.0pH for acid preference fruiting plants (blueberry) - ERW 6.5pH for water changes / pond & filter top-ups - ERW 7.0pH for watering seedlings, water changes / pond & filter top-ups - ERW 7.5pH / 8.0pH, 8.5pH, 9.0pH, 9.5pH, 10.0pH, 10.5Ph, 11.0pH & 11.5pH- ... many, many uses of many different pH's. Far too much to list/discuss in one post.... that is why I started this thread. I have had the view for many decades that, "Water is the most complex thing on Earth". I will be away for a week. When I return i'll look at the mainstream commercial uses of ERW in agriculture and industry of the past 100 years. Then i'll jump onto commercial trials of growing rice with ERW (yes, of all crops - Rice !?!).... the cattle/dairy industry, then splash into aquaculture. Cheers Toga
  9. Hello Mohamed, I think, put simply, what is missing in your system is maturity and balance. This can / does take time and often is a combination of many factors. The important thing is to maintain health of the fish you do have now. Adjusting the pH will be problematic because you have a rather large volume of water, you have fish in the pond and you have close to 50 tonnes of gravel that may be affecting the pH. I would normally suggest using various acids to lower pH... this is dangerous and can be fraught with hazard. Many people accidentally kill their fish adjusting pH. In your case, for the moment, I would address other issues first. My suggestion to cover the pond was to make something like a raised shadehouse/roof. The numbers make reference to Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate. This is known as the Nitrogen Cycle. **EDIT - Living Bacteria that need to grow, age and mature** Understanding the Nitrogen Cycle is extremely high priority. This directly effects both Fish & Plant health and growth. You can read more here. When you finally get a balanced Nitrogen cycle you will see much less algae grown, and much more plant growth. Cheers Joe
  10. Hi Willroy, I am looking specifically at your layout plan, and reading your verbal plans... and I am having some confusions. I do not exactly comprehend - a) What each different size grow area is designed for, so many areas and sizes ? b) Which areas for the Tilapia ? c) Which areas for the Red Claws ? d) I do not see a water flow diagram - Inlets / outlets / sumps / pumps ? e) I do not see any filtration ? d) Do you plan additional aeration ? I hope you are still in the 'pencil on paper' planning stage. I am sure to have more questions when I have a clearer understanding of your layout plans. At that point in time, I/we/APN members/APN staff, would be able to offer many more specific comments / feedback. Each of these questions, and answers has big implications to design, layout and easy operation. Examples are: A) Different sizes and types of media growbeds, DWRaft, fish areas, crayfish areas... each have a different internal shape / profile for best recommended performance / results. B & C) For best results, each species has slightly different preferred habitat requirements for different stages of growth. Breeding, fry rearing, fingerling grow out... and even purging, in regard to tank size / shape / profile. 100mx80m greenhouse is an expensive exercise... doing something/s wrong and having to re-do them is +4x as expensive. Cheers Toga
  11. Hello Mohamed from UAE, Welcome to APN forums. Excellent decision to utilise the greenhouse ! OK, i'll try to address what you have mentioned and I have viewed, to the best of my opinion and experience. a) 7.6pH is to high for most plants to thrive in due to nutrient lock-out. Best results are usually found around 6.0-7.0pH due to nutrient availability. b) Irrigation timing is one of the largest variables and is dependent on many factors. Different sizes, shapes and depths of GB will have different water/moisture retention capacities. My experience suggests that growbeds with non-porous rocks do better with irrigation timings of 15mins ON / 45min OFF. *My growbeds were 5mtrs long x 1.4mtrs wide - I have no experience with IBC size growbeds Some people advocate irrigation only during the day, my systems ran 24hrs a day. c) I note 2 fans at greenhouse end wall. What are the day/night air temperatures, min/max ? d) A big issue, in my view, is the green water pond. As good as these conditions may be for the tilapia and fry... the green algae is consuming all of the nutrients, intended for the plants in the growbeds. Have you tested the pond water for Ammonia, Nitrites & Nitrates ? ... the results are ?? Such luscious green algae suggests to me your results might be around 0ppm/0ppm/10-20ppm, My systems ran approx 0ppm/5ppm/150ppm Additionally, water temps may be higher than your plants prefer... especially as the pond is in full desert sun. What are your water temps ? Is there a way you can cover the pond ? Also, I noted some leaky irrigation fittings. These reduce water pressure, increase evaporation and increase running costs. Looking forward to your future updates. Cheers Toga
  12. Hi Willroy, Sorry for my delayed reply. I am really loving what you have done, and are planning to do. I do however apologise that I can not get a more detailed reply and some questions to you for a couple of days. Cheers Toga
  13. Hi, A fellow member mentioned some trials they were doing with electrolysis, in an unrelated thread, here. Wiki simply explains Electrolysis of water as: "Electrolysis of water is the decomposition of water into oxygen and hydrogen gas due to the passage of an electric current. The reaction has a standard potential of −1.23 V, meaning it ideally requires a potential difference of 1.23 volts to split water." History has shown many 1000's of benefits & applications of electrically reduced water (ERW). One of the largest impact of benefits of ERW was first realised as early as 1870 with studies into its anti-microbial / anti-bacterial properties. ERW was the main disinfectant, steriliser and sanitiser of WW1... and was still in use until mid 1920's when pharma chemical came along. It is interesting to follow the history of ERW... because it, like so many other things of the time, were outcast (by design) in favour of pharmaceuticals. After the nuclear bombing of Japan in WW2, trade sanctions saw very little pharmaceuticals or medications into the country. ERW, once again, became #1 for disinfecting, sterilising and sanitising. So with that little snippet of history / intro complete, I'll throw in a little teaser to say that I have a bit of personal info and experiences to share... but for now, I'll open the floor for discussion .......... Cheers Toga
  14. Hi Stigmatize, General consensus it that it is best to keep fish of same size, as much as possible. This reduces potential aggression and dominance of food. They tend to grow more evenly in size, too. Cheers Toga
  15. That is very interesting, Joe. Rosenburgii & ERW ? Are you sure you are not my twin ? lols I'll start a new thread later today re Electrolysis. As it happens, I too am experimenting with ERW (electrically reduced water) What's in a name, ehh ? Cheers TogaJoe